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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Hm.

Sunflower
Valinor

Aug 22 2007, 7:13am


Views: 272
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Hm. [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder what Tolkien would have made of us--we Netizens, and TORN people in particular. I'd like to think of us as a step above his experience of the "deploarable cultus"--how many of us have pilloried Jackson's home, etc. I don't think Tolkien hated his more extreme fans; just was genuienly bewildred at their intensity. I'd like to think we's progressed a bit beyond the rabid horders who climbed over his garden fence. Witness the resepct with which a lot of her fans treat Jo Rowling. As to the NEt itself.....someone once wrote a hilarious "email" sent by Tolkien to his fans, deploring the declining state of literacy? Hilarious because it was both so Tolkien and so TRUE. ,,.

Regarding Aragorn and marriage, I think that he would have happily eloped with Arwen had it not been for the fact that without the desruction of the RIng, they'd all end up dead eventually, or worse, enslaved, so that duty thing had its merits. This IS a morality tale, after all. As far that pesky "Duty" thing goes, this goes hand in hand with the sex and romance thing,. Too many people criticize Tolkien for being woefully weak in the romance department and WAYYYY behind the times when it came to depicting women. HOW MANY TIMES would I love to remind people that Tolkien came from a generation that was young NEARLY A CENTURY AGO and heck, up until the late 60s, women even in the U.S. were expected to graduate from high school and get married like good little girls. Tolkien could no more write "contemporary" romance than we could write of ebing housefraus. And to those who say that many modern authors in his generation tried to do just that, I still can't think of any finer ATTEMPT to write a "modern" character than Eowyn, a woman who didn;t need the entry of Aragorn into her life to dream of going into battle and doing what men did--and actually do it. In my mind Eowyn is as "modern" a character as Scarlett O'Hara--a character of course written by a woman. And as far as "wilting like a rosebud" as soon as she fell in love with Faramir, I don't think it was that. WHAT is wring with someone who chooses to lay down the sword and become a healer? I don't think she stopped being who she was.


If anything, Tolkien goes farther than even most contemporary authors in suggesting that far from being "liberated" themsleves by women's self-proclaimed "liberation", man is utterly incomplete without woman, and cannot be himself without her. None of his "dysfunctional" male characters are happy husbands. The sadness of Elrond, the lonlieness of Theoden, and the bitterness and anger of Denethor are all testiment of this. One gets the feeling that they wouldn't be who they were if their wives were alive. To me this seems to suggest that a man needsa woman more than versa vice. Again, this would be the Edith thing, and considering that he had a happy lifelong marriage (something that I think Christopher is bitter about) I'd toss a coin at it anyday. Subtle statements from Tolkien are the most powerful ones, and this is to me the most powerful "femenist" statement. As for literary romance---what would you expect, a graphic, "romance novel" style depiction of King Elessar's wedding night? (come to think of it---don't think we Viggo fans haven't gone there, esp with Viggo, who has only to walk into a room to leave the inert bodies of women on the floor in his wake--and the fact that the man has absolutely no ego, in a Hollywood sense, and is utterly un-selfconscious about it all, makes him doubly...um....(thinks of description of a controversil scene from Viggo's next film, a David Cronenberg production, that is already muich discussed.....*my mind is traveling some sinful roads---STOP it, Ms. Flower!!TongueWinkEvil.....

Coming from a generation where "hookups" are what passes for romance and 2 or every theree marriages end in divorce, and you probably couldn';t depict onscreen INTIMACY (NOT romance) if they paid you twice as much because you never knew what it was in your life, I'd take the "off camera" sex and wooing any day of the week. In some cases it's batter if it retains its poetry and mystery, and yes, its HOLINESS. In my mind, Faramir's courtship speech makes up for everything. It wasn't flowery poetry--he was speaking from the soul and it bespoke a deep hunger that was more than sexual or romantic. True, it was a "wartime love"speech that might be alien to those of us who grew up in times or peace but then again, why couldn't peacetime love be this way?

Subject User Time
'What Say You?' ~ Hobbit Movie Reports, Rumours & Rumblings ~ 11th Aug 07 ~ Two Directors? Elven Send a private message to Elven Aug 11 2007, 7:14am
    Report from IESB.net ~ 11/08/07 ~ Raimi & Jackson on the Hobbit. Elven Send a private message to Elven Aug 11 2007, 7:37am
        Bah! Rabittooth Send a private message to Rabittooth Aug 11 2007, 11:00am
    What say I? kareniel Send a private message to kareniel Aug 11 2007, 11:45am
        Producer vs Director ? fmaximus Send a private message to fmaximus Aug 11 2007, 2:50pm
            Well, Ataahua Send a private message to Ataahua Aug 11 2007, 10:05pm
        I agree, Kareniel Patty Send a private message to Patty Aug 11 2007, 10:28pm
    2 Films? 2 Directors? 2 much? Elven Send a private message to Elven Aug 11 2007, 4:17pm
    blah Ecthel Send a private message to Ecthel Aug 11 2007, 5:43pm
    Ugh... diedye Send a private message to diedye Aug 11 2007, 5:57pm
    I wish this news had never come to me FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 11 2007, 7:28pm
        Well done. Patty Send a private message to Patty Aug 11 2007, 10:30pm
        Good one! Loresilme Send a private message to Loresilme Aug 12 2007, 11:31pm
    I wish it was Peter only... Compa_Mighty Send a private message to Compa_Mighty Aug 11 2007, 8:03pm
        MGM .... Elven Send a private message to Elven Aug 11 2007, 8:19pm
    I'm up, I'm down ... Loresilme Send a private message to Loresilme Aug 12 2007, 11:50pm
        Ive been sitting on the edge of my seat over this ... Elven Send a private message to Elven Aug 13 2007, 7:34pm
    eh hasufel Send a private message to hasufel Aug 13 2007, 4:30pm
        Producing & directing FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 13 2007, 5:45pm
            Yes Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 13 2007, 5:57pm
    Well.... Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 13 2007, 5:00pm
        Yes... and no Compa_Mighty Send a private message to Compa_Mighty Aug 13 2007, 10:23pm
            Any news is welcome Compa Mighty ... Elven Send a private message to Elven Aug 14 2007, 10:13pm
                I'm just glad to see that the Internet movie database has taken Raimi's name Patty Send a private message to Patty Aug 14 2007, 10:27pm
                    So let me get this straight. Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 15 2007, 6:10am
                        PS. Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 15 2007, 6:24am
                            New Line and Time Warner ArathornJax Send a private message to ArathornJax Aug 15 2007, 3:45pm
                                But will The Hobbit be big enough FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 15 2007, 5:46pm
                                    This would indeed be the worst of all worlds. Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 15 2007, 11:10pm
                                        Oh and I forgot... Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 15 2007, 11:23pm
                                            If you feel it you say it..haven't heard him say in a while frodo33 Send a private message to frodo33 Aug 16 2007, 5:39am
                                                I don't know, of course, but... Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 16 2007, 9:13am
                                            On the other hand FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 16 2007, 9:15am
                                                Point taken, but.... Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 16 2007, 10:33am
                                                    The radio interview was quite recent FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 16 2007, 11:04am
                                                        Oh, I forgot Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 16 2007, 12:00pm
                                        What about PJs thoughts? hasufel Send a private message to hasufel Aug 16 2007, 2:57pm
        If Raimi isn't available till 2011... Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Aug 13 2007, 10:48pm
            Well... Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 14 2007, 2:36pm
                Isn't Jackson also doing something with Patty Send a private message to Patty Aug 14 2007, 5:03pm
                    Tintin (it's Belgian!) FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 14 2007, 5:13pm
                        Aha! Patty Send a private message to Patty Aug 14 2007, 7:46pm
                            Yeah. Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 14 2007, 7:50pm
                    The Tintin Trilogy Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 14 2007, 5:20pm
                Is Tolkien's Aragorn really a "two-dimensional stereotype"? squire Send a private message to squire Aug 16 2007, 2:02pm
                    Say what? Lily Fairbairn Send a private message to Lily Fairbairn Aug 16 2007, 2:26pm
                        I think he meant *movie viewers* despised him by the end. Advising Elf Send a private message to Advising Elf Aug 16 2007, 3:03pm
                            Ahhhh, I see Lily Fairbairn Send a private message to Lily Fairbairn Aug 16 2007, 3:31pm
                                One (or more) of those debates was with me. :o) // Advising Elf Send a private message to Advising Elf Aug 16 2007, 4:34pm
                        I was not very clear there, sorry squire Send a private message to squire Aug 16 2007, 4:07pm
                            While I might have my doubts Lily Fairbairn Send a private message to Lily Fairbairn Aug 16 2007, 4:35pm
                                Harumph! Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 16 2007, 7:59pm
                    Yep. Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 16 2007, 7:52pm
                        *raspberry* Advising Elf Send a private message to Advising Elf Aug 16 2007, 8:37pm
                            Not quite FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 16 2007, 9:16pm
                            *sticks out tongue and crosses eyes* Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 16 2007, 9:32pm
                                What edition are you reading? Wynnie Send a private message to Wynnie Aug 16 2007, 9:47pm
                                    Yeah, that one. And the previous edition: Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 16 2007, 10:48pm
                                        for what it's worth... weaver Send a private message to weaver Aug 16 2007, 11:29pm
                                            Agreed.... Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 17 2007, 6:24am
                                                Sean Astin thought FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 17 2007, 2:05pm
                                            You've taken the words out of my mouth! FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 17 2007, 8:12am
                                                So... Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 17 2007, 1:43pm
                                                    Well said! Lily Fairbairn Send a private message to Lily Fairbairn Aug 17 2007, 2:38pm
                                                    No, Tolkien would never have gone for that squire Send a private message to squire Aug 18 2007, 3:35pm
                                                        Citation please. Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 18 2007, 6:38pm
                                                            Thanks folks.... Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 19 2007, 2:00am
                                                            Well FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 20 2007, 8:25am
                                                                Well Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 20 2007, 2:55pm
                                                                    Lots to agree with here. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 20 2007, 5:51pm
                                                                        Tolkien and Shakespeare. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Aug 20 2007, 8:24pm
                                                                            Hm. Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 22 2007, 7:13am
                                See my reply to Lily below [Uh, oh!] about Argorn's motivation. Advising Elf Send a private message to Advising Elf Aug 17 2007, 7:24pm
                                    I suspect Lily Fairbairn Send a private message to Lily Fairbairn Aug 17 2007, 7:48pm
                                        "But I was going to Tosche Station to pick up some power-converters!" Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 18 2007, 8:02am
                                            And about Lucas... Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 18 2007, 8:16am
                                                For more comparisons.... Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 18 2007, 8:49am
                                                    PPS. Sunflower Send a private message to Sunflower Aug 18 2007, 12:39pm
                                                        lots and lots of thoughts from you! weaver Send a private message to weaver Aug 18 2007, 1:36pm
                                        Well put, Lily... Patty Send a private message to Patty Aug 18 2007, 2:42pm
                            And yet again, AE, we disagree Lily Fairbairn Send a private message to Lily Fairbairn Aug 17 2007, 3:18pm
                                A private sort of sigh.... weaver Send a private message to weaver Aug 17 2007, 4:47pm
                                    *Sigh*... that's a great post, weaver! / FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Aug 17 2007, 5:35pm
                                    *mods up* / Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Aug 17 2007, 5:43pm
                                        *two mods up* Patty Send a private message to Patty Aug 17 2007, 5:53pm
                                    Yes! Thank you! // Lily Fairbairn Send a private message to Lily Fairbairn Aug 17 2007, 6:53pm
                                Uh oh! We might actually agree on something here! Advising Elf Send a private message to Advising Elf Aug 17 2007, 7:20pm

 
 
 

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