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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 7 2011, 8:30pm
Post #1 of 3
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** IV.6 The Forbidden Pool ** "A hard doom and a hopeless errand"
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Faramir is having a private conversation with Frodo, following the revelation that Gollum is taking the hobbits to Cirith Ungol. He advises Frodo in no uncertain terms that he is "very unwise" to trust Gollum. Frodo insists that Gollum may not be "altogether wicked," but the basic issue is that he seems to have no alternative.
Here is a map, courtesy of The Encyclopedia of Arda.
1. Anyone care to conjecture what alternative path might have worked had either Frodo or Faramir known of it? What might Gandalf have recommended?
Faramir then provides some background on the proposed route, including some history and the fact that there is some dark terror that dwells in the passes above Minas Morgul. If Cirith Ungol is named, old men and masters of lore will blanch and fall silent. This background is useful, but does not include a translation of Cirith Ungol, which means "Cleft (or pass) of the Spider."
2. Do you think Faramir knew this translation? If so, why didn't he provide it?
3. Is there anything further Faramir might have said or done to protect Frodo from what is to come?
Frodo, who we can assume has been desperately seeking other options for some time, finally raises one more alternative: taking the Ring to Minas Tirith. But there he foresees even greater disaster: What spell would it work in Minas Tirith? Shall there be two cities of Minas Morgul, grinning at each other across a dead land filled with rottenness?
Frodo has met Boromir, who was "driven mad with desire" for the Ring, and Faramir, who seems unaffected by the Ring and entirely honorable. He has heard just a little of Minas Tirith's history, and knows nothing of Denethor.
4. On what grounds does he make this prediction? What do you think would have happened?
Reluctantly, Faramir bids farewell to Frodo, promising a blessing and some food, along with the faint prospect of hearing the whole story sometime. His farewell reminds me a bit of Galadriel's farewell to Treebeard, Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!
5. Do you think Faramir ever got to hear the story?
6. At the beginning of the week, I said I think this chapter is the major turning point in the relationship between Frodo and Gollum. Do you agree? Why or why not?
7. Any further comments on this chapter?
It's been a pleasure sharing with you, the lurkers as well as the participants!
Join us in the Reading Room for LotR The Two Towers, Book IV!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 7 2011, 8:36pm)
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sador
Half-elven
May 9 2011, 8:56am
Post #2 of 3
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1. Anyone care to conjecture what alternative path might have worked had either Frodo or Faramir known of it? What might Gandalf have recommended?
Should I copy and paste my answer, or is a link enough?
2. Do you think Faramir knew this translation? If so, why didn't he provide it?
I've expplained in my answer to your previous thread.
3. Is there anything further Faramir might have said or done to protect Frodo from what is to come?
He might have blessed him.
Although perhaps his farewell words in the next page might count as a blessing.
4. On what grounds does he make this prediction?
It definitely recalls his vision in the Dead Marshes.
What do you think would have happened?
Something else.
Maybe a Nazgul would attack them as they went down to Osgiliath, which would convince Faramir to let Frodo go... 
5. Do you think Faramir ever got to hear the story?
Yes. But probably not from Frodo.
6. At the beginning of the week, I said I think this chapter is the major turning point in the relationship between Frodo and Gollum. Do you agree? Why or why not?
I'm not sure. Gollum planned to betray them to Shelob as early as after crossing the Dead Marshes, and could still repent (at least, Tolkien wants us to believe so) as late as the top of the second stair of Cirith Ungol. And Frodo has invoked the Ring to cow him in the Emyn Muil and in the dell next to the Black Gate.
But this chapter is different in a way: it is the first time in which Frodo actually threatens Gollum, and the first time Gollum resents it; also, once Gollum preceives Frodo as betraying him, it gives him the self-justification for breaking his own promise.
7. Any further comments on this chapter?
It's nice that Faramir let Gollum keep the fish.
It's been a pleasure sharing with you, the lurkers as well as the participants!
Thank you! It was a great discussion!
"Would this Chapter have been as effective if it took place in the Forbidden Forest, or the Forbidden Cave, or the Forbidden Tower, or some other type of forbidden place?"
- weaver.
The weekly discussion of The Lord of the Rings is back. Join us in the Reading Room for The Forbidden Pool!
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 10 2011, 5:47pm
Post #3 of 3
(997 views)
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"So long, and thanks for the fish."
[In reply to]
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Anyone care to conjecture what alternative path might have worked had either Frodo or Faramir known of it?
An end run around to the rear if they have time. Over the mountains if they’re skilled and equipped mountaineers.
But they don’t and they’re not.
What might Gandalf have recommended?
“Fly, you fools!” That is, meet the eagles on the Emyn Muil, then highball it to Mount Doom before the Nazgul could scramble and intercept.
2. Do you think Faramir knew this translation?
Sure, he’s studied the lore of Gondor.
If so, why didn't he provide it?
sador has a reasonable answer. I hope it’s right. Otherwise maybe Faramir is hoping that the ring in Shelob’s tummy is much safer than on Sauron’s finger. I mean, he’s not making her pay rent so maybe he doesn’t dare mess with her. After all, she’s Morgoth’s girl friend.
3. Is there anything further Faramir might have said or done to protect Frodo from what is to come?
At the very least he might have given them weapons that weren't so shoddily made they cracked and broke at their very first use!
4. On what grounds does he make this prediction?
Men are weak.
What do you think would have happened?
Faramir and his fans would have found out exactly how susceptible he was.
5. Do you think Faramir ever got to hear the story?
I’m sure he was the main Gondorian revisionist, er, that is, translator, of The Red Book.
6. At the beginning of the week, I said I think this chapter is the major turning point in the relationship between Frodo and Gollum. Do you agree?
Like all couples the major turning point in their relationship was when they first met.
Why or why not?
Once they met it was pretty much all cut and dried how it was going to go. Frodo was looking for a reason to trust Gollum, and Gollum was looking for a reason to betray Frodo. All else was just waiting for the shoes to start dropping.
7. Any further comments on this chapter?
No. (Er, wait. Isn't "No" a comment? Then I guess the answer is "yes".)
It's been a pleasure sharing with you, the lurkers as well as the participants!
Thank you!
******************************************
From IMDB trivia:
"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."
*Darkstone bangs head against wall*
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