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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 6 2011, 9:15pm
Post #1 of 5
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** IV.6 The Forbidden Pool ** Faramir's doom
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Doom (noun) (from dictionary.com)
1. fate or destiny, especially adverse fate; unavoidable ill fortune: In exile and poverty, he met his doom.
2. ruin; death: to fall to one's doom.
3. a judgment, decision, or sentence, especially an unfavorable one: The judge pronounced the defendant's doom.
4. the Last Judgment, at the end of the world.
5. Obsolete . a statute, enactment, or legal judgment.
Having wring from Gollum a promise never to return or lead anyone to Henneth Annûn, Faramir turns him over to Frodo, to "declare what he will do with you." But Frodo points out that he cannot, since Faramir hasn't decided what to do with the hobbits!
At this point, proceedings become extremely formal. Faramir declares his judgement (definition 3 above): that Frodo has license to go where he will in Gondor within the limits of Faramir's authority, for a year and a day; he is under Faramir's protection, along with anyone whom he takes under his protection (meaning Sam and Gollum). Faramir requires Frodo to formally take Gollum under his protection, declaring that it is only this which keeps the mandatory death sentence for invading Henneth Amnûn at bay. Sam is not explicitly mentioned.
1. Comments on this formal proceeding? Should Sam have been mentioned explicitly?
Having basically declared that Frodo & co. can go where they will, Faramir now demands to know where they are going. To no one's surprise, he gets no answer from Gollum, but Frodo attempts to tell what he knows. As he describes the high pass near Minas Ithil (now called Minas Morgul), Faramir recognizes it:
'Do you know the name of that high pass?' said Faramir.
'No,' said Frodo.
'It is called Cirith Ungol.' Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. 'Is not that its name?' said Faramir turning to him.
'No!' said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him. 'Yes, yes, we heard the name once. But what does the name matter to us? Master says he must get in. So we must try some way. There is no other way to try, no.'
2. Why is the name significant?
3. What made Gollum "squeal" and then acknowledge the name?
Faramir is far from satisfied, but realizes that nothing further will be gotten out of Gollum. Sending him away, he prepares for a private chat with Frodo.
4, Why did Faramir warn Gollum against diving onto the rocks? Wouldn't an accidental fall have been a welcome outcome?
Join us in the Reading Room for LotR The Two Towers, Book IV!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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sador
Half-elven
May 8 2011, 9:02pm
Post #2 of 5
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There shall be shown a token
That Doom is at hand
For Isildur's Bane will awaken
And the Halfling forth shall stand.
1. Comments on this formal proceeding?
As Sam noted, in is actually pretty short.
Should Sam have been mentioned explicitly?
No. There is no point in allotting any other doom to him.
2. Why is the name significant?
It tricks the second-time reader.
Armed with the knowledge that 'Cirith Ungol' means 'spider pass', the said reader nodds to himself/herself fatuously, noting that Faramir is so brilliant, he even knows about Shelob.
Wrong!
'Cirith Ungol' might easily refer to the dizzying spider-walk up the stairs (see Bombur's words in On the Doorstep); for all Faramir knows, the 'dark terror' that dwells in the high pass above the Morgul Vale, which never comes back to tell from, might easily be a sheer drop into the abyss.
3. What made Gollum "squeal" and then acknowledge the name?
A ha! So it knows Elvish names, does it? Very learned, that Gollum is!
And Gollum is caught just like Frodo was led to acknowledge him at the beginning of the chapter (as you mentioned): by suddenly pouncing upon him in an unexpected manner.
Faramir is far from satisfied, but realizes that nothing further will be gotten out of Gollum. Sending him away, he prepares for a private chat with Frodo.
4, Why did Faramir warn Gollum against diving onto the rocks? Wouldn't an accidental fall have been a welcome outcome?
It's not a warning from sharp falls, it's a threat. The sharp teeth could be Anborn's dagger, or that of one of his comrades.
"Would this Chapter have been as effective if it took place in the Forbidden Forest, or the Forbidden Cave, or the Forbidden Tower, or some other type of forbidden place?"
- weaver.
The weekly discussion of The Lord of the Rings is back. Join us in the Reading Room for The Forbidden Pool!
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 10 2011, 5:01pm
Post #3 of 5
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Lawyer by day, ranger by night.
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1. Comments on this formal proceeding?
Faramir’s ruling is final, no matter how many times he changes it.
Should Sam have been mentioned explicitly?
No doubt. However, it does give Faramir a loophole big enough to fly a Nazgul through, doesn’t it? Kind of like asking a genii for a wish, or making a deal with the Devil, or making an oath on The One Ring. "It may twist your words. Beware!"
2. Why is the name significant?
It means “Pass of the Spider”. It’s like if you go to Tehoseroron you expect to see basswoods, or if you go to Riviere aux Chevaux you expect to see horses, or if you go to Hooters you expect to see, er, owls. (Tehoseroron = Place of the Basswoods. Riviere aux Chevaux = River of Horses. Hooters = [family board].)
So if you go to The Pass of the Spider you expect to see spiders. Or if the name is absolutely literal, *THE* spider!
3. What made Gollum "squeal" and then acknowledge the name?
I strongly expect Tolkien is making implicit what Jackson made explicit.
(For example, “Presently he spoke again. ‘Take this creature away, Anborn. Treat him gently…’” Which leads one to wonder what is Faramir's SOP treatment for prisoners? That is, how would Anborn have treated Gollum in the absence of any orders? Say, kick him around like a soccer ball?)
4, Why did Faramir warn Gollum against diving onto the rocks?
That would seem to be Gollum’s only chance of escape, other than trying to fight his way past a hundred men.
Wouldn't an accidental fall have been a welcome outcome?
Yes, but he doesn’t want that outcome with Gollum so he warns him against it.
BTW, now that you mention it, I note that Faramir didn’t warn Frodo and Sam against it. You think that at first Faramir was hoping to solve the whole mess in a less complicated manner?
(Then again maybe he was giving the high sign to Anborn in regards to dealing with Gollum but Anborn didn't pick up on it.)
******************************************
From IMDB trivia:
"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."
*Darkstone bangs head against wall*
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
May 11 2011, 4:20am
Post #4 of 5
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1. Comments on this formal proceeding? Should Sam have been mentioned explicitly?
Sam is clearly already under Frodo's protection (or else Frodo is under his). I do like the formal ceremony, especially "a year and a day". Hasty research on Google indicates that this time frame is traditionally used in legal matters, both historic and modern. It has a poetic feel to it, too, and strikes me as a standard phrase with many applications in stories and songs. It is used in a ballad called "The Cruel Mother": He courted her for a year and a day...
2. Why is the name significant?
I admit I was in the dark about the name for a very long time. Sador mentioned how the second-time reader would pick up on it, but I can't tell you many readings it took me before I had the translation in mind. It doesn't diminish the passage in any way, knowing what the name means or not. It's just vaguely disquieting, a name of fear on the edge of consciousness, like the Necromancer in The Hobbit.
Where's Frodo?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 11 2011, 6:54pm
Post #5 of 5
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If you go to Spider Pass, take some insecticide
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The name is probably significant as foreshadowing. Frodo doesn't know the details of where he's going, and going into Mordor is bad enough. Faramir sees a specific danger ahead, so the reader will be unsettled on what unknown evil to expect besides the obvious lots of orcs. And a reader might still be wondering who She is, though I never made the connection myself.
I'm not sure why Gollum squeals. He doesn't squeal immediately after speaking the Elvish name, so I wouldn't attribute it to him speaking Elvish. Maybe it's his memory of meeting Shelob? While he does become her servant, I would suspect on their first encounter she treated him as her next meal, which would have been a squeal-producing experience and memory.
Or maybe Faramir has some of the telepathy that Aragorn displays when the latter does *something* to the Mouth of Sauron without moving or speaking that makes the Mouth react defensively. A mental probe of some kind? Did Faramir probe Gollum's mind for a lie on this point? But probably not, since he's done plenty of interrogating of the creature already and would have used it before.
Another possibility, and maybe more likely, is that this is the Stinker/Slinker struggle going on inside Gollum about to betray or not betray Frodo to Shelob, a squeal from an inner argument between a hobbit and a monster.
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