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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 27 2011, 1:20am
Post #1 of 5
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The Window on the West: III
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We're still talking about the vision that Faramir had of his brother:
`Yet how could such a thing have happened in truth? ' asked Frodo. 'For no boat could have been carried over the stony hills from Tol Brandir; and Boromir purposed to go home across the Entwash and the fields of Rohan. And yet how could any vessel ride the foam of the great falls and not founder in the boiling pools, though laden with water? ' 'I know not,' said Faramir. 'But whence came the boat? ' `From Lorien,' said Frodo. 'In three such boats we rowed down Anduin to the Falls. They also were of elven‑work.' 'You passed through the Hidden Land,' said Faramir, `but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, 'tis said. `Boromir, O Boromir! ' he cried. `What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then? Why went you ever to Laurelindorenan, and came not by your own road, upon the horses of Rohan riding home in the morning? '
I see Denethor's influence in this comment. Since we later learn that Faramir spent time with Gandalf, it appears his knowledge of Lorien was incomplete. Why did the men of Gondor fear the people of Lorien?
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 27 2011, 8:27am
Post #2 of 5
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I think Faramir understood Lorien better than Frodo
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'You passed through the Hidden Land,' said Faramir, `but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, 'tis said. `Boromir, O Boromir! ' he cried. `What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then? Why went you ever to Laurelindorenan, and came not by your own road, upon the horses of Rohan riding home in the morning? '
Isn't he right? Later, Sam will say that it was in Lorien that Boromir first confronted his desire for the Ring (or conclusion that it should be used, if not by Aragorn then by himself) - which confirms Faramir's words here (or did they perhaps influence Sam's hindsight? These things are quite subtle). This also fits well with his reaction to Galadriel's looking into his heart - was she offering assitance for him to take It? Clearly, strange things have followed, and Boromir came out of Lorien changed, even badly scathed. Perhaps it was because he brought his own evil with him. But it is clear that for his own sake, he should have come home by his own road.
"An interesting statement: death was present because the people sought life."
- Menelwyn.
The weekly discussion of The Lord of the Rings is back. Join us in the Reading Room for The Window on the West!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 28 2011, 3:19am
Post #3 of 5
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Faramir is still caught in the general decline
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I see Denethor's influence in this comment. Since we later learn that Faramir spent time with Gandalf, it appears his knowledge of Lorien was incomplete. Why did the men of Gondor fear the people of Lorien?
I suppose if Lorien really did change mortals, why didn't it change the hobbits? They seem the same to me as when they entered. The mortal Dwarf becomes an Elf-friend, so he changed. Aragorn had already been there so he doesn't count (or he had already been "changed").
Boromir's change can be explained different ways. Before entering Lorien he was full of suspicion, yet he himself was hiding pernicious desires for the Ring. So was he damaged by the negativity he felt toward the Golden Wood or by Galadriel's testing of him? Does Lorien just make you more of what you already are? Braver if you're brave, more selfish if you're selfish? Boromir was the only one to whom peril came, and I don't take Faramir's "men" literally, i.e., the Dwarf and hobbits who entered Lorien didn't exit into any moral peril. I would guess that if someone virtuous like Faramir went to Lorien, he would leave it "changed" but more virtuous than before. I'd guess the same of Eomer and Theoden. Oh, gosh, but what a wreck Eowyn would be! And Denethor would have come out positively monstrous.
Anyway, you're right, Faramir may have been a "wizard's pupil," but he didn't learn enough from Gandalf and retained his people's racist bigotry toward someone who had never done them any harm. Pretty surprising from descendants of the Faithful of Numenor who were allied with the Eldar there and also upon their escape to Middle-earth. This is part of the decadence of Gondor that even Faramir is subject to, and probably an explanation of why he isn't noble enough to be King even though he's pretty wonderful in every way. It's up to Aragorn to restore the superior qualities of all the Numenoreans, even Faramir.
Or a short answer to your question would be the question: why do people hate Jews, or blacks, or anyone who's different?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 28 2011, 3:35pm
Post #4 of 5
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`Yet how could such a thing have happened in truth? ' asked Frodo. 'For no boat could have been carried over the stony hills from Tol Brandir; and Boromir purposed to go home across the Entwash and the fields of Rohan. And yet how could any vessel ride the foam of the great falls and not founder in the boiling pools, though laden with water? '
That’s exactly what they said about Annie Edson Taylor and she proved them wrong. And she was 63!
'I know not,' said Faramir. 'But whence came the boat? '
I’m suddenly reminded of The Lonely Island and I’m not talking about Tol Eressëa. I can just see Boromir singing a duet with T-Pain, and it’s not pretty.
'You passed through the Hidden Land,' said Faramir, `but it seems that you little understood its power.
Pot, meet kettle.
If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow.
Wherever angels go, trouble follows. Would Rosalind Russell or Stella Stevens make a better Galadriel than Cate Blanchett? I’ve always been partial to Stella Stevens ever since “Advance to the Rear” (1964). I first saw the film at a sneak preview. She made a big impression on an eleven year old boy.
For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun…
...and into a Green sun.
…and few of old came thence unchanged, 'tis said.
They’re probably exaggerating. I bet *none* of old came thence unchanged.
`Boromir, O Boromir! ' he cried. `What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then? Why went you ever to Laurelindorenan, and came not by your own road, upon the horses of Rohan riding home in the morning? '
I think whatever Galadriel put into his heart saved him from the ring. Though she did not give him the strength to resist it (perhaps it was too late for that), she did give him the strength to break free once he fell. If he had been truly ring-crazed he would have kept looking for Frodo after he tried to take the ring. Instead he was able to realize his error, break free, and then redeem himself. Galadriel saved Boromir.
I see Denethor's influence in this comment. Since we later learn that Faramir spent time with Gandalf, it appears his knowledge of Lorien was incomplete. Why did the men of Gondor fear the people of Lorien?
Like Faramir said, for the same reasons men fear the people of Faerie. If you seek Faerie and find it, you often don’t come back. And even if you do come back, it’s a few centuries later and you’re not who you used to be, and you’re usually very unhappy and want to go back, but you can’t.
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From IMDB trivia:
"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."
*Darkstone bangs head against wall*
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PhantomS
Rohan
Apr 29 2011, 3:31am
Post #5 of 5
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I suppose if Lorien really did change mortals, why didn't it change the hobbits? They seem the same to me as when they entered. The mortal Dwarf becomes an Elf-friend, so he changed. Aragorn had already been there so he doesn't count (or he had already been "changed").
Men tend to think themselves as the only mortals, with even the Ents not having heard of Hobbits. The land of Lothlorien didn't change the Hobbits so drastically as it might have the other mortals- even Aragorn gets his Elessar and Galadriel's explicit blessings- ,perhaps because it's a place of nature and young life, things Hobbits are already attuned to. They don't fear the forest- there's a creepier one right next to their own Shire... I'd say they actually enjoyed the place! Boromir has heard of this strange place where his prowess means nothing, and I doubt he does forest treks (he's more of a mountain climber, it seems!).
I would guess that if someone virtuous like Faramir went to Lorien, he would leave it "changed" but more virtuous than before. I'd guess the same of Eomer and Theoden. Oh, gosh, but what a wreck Eowyn would be! And Denethor would have come out positively monstrous.
Faramir might be overwhelmed to some extent, but given that he speaks Elvish (hence can communcate with the locals ) and is somewhat like his ancestors he might adjust better there. Theoden's Gondorian upbringing might help him but he too has to learn a lot before learning not to fear the place. Eomer has already called Galadriel a witch (Dwimmer) and her forest a witch's place, so he might end up like Boromir, albeit more confused than selfish. Eowyn and her brother are young as well as naive about the Elves; as Sam says , they might smash their metaphorical ship on Galadriel's rock and not realize it.
Pretty surprising from descendants of the Faithful of Numenor who were allied with the Eldar there and also upon their escape to Middle-earth. This is part of the decadence of Gondor that even Faramir is subject to, and probably an explanation of why he isn't noble enough to be King even though he's pretty wonderful in every way. It's up to Aragorn to restore the superior qualities of all the Numenoreans, even Faramir.
Back when the borders were further north, the Gondorians might have had dealings with the Golden Wood (Isildur mentions it as a possible but too distant source for help in UT) but the borders receded and finally were ceded to Rohan. Brandir, the one who fetched Eorl didn't even think about going there for help (though he could have been sent expressly for the Eotheod) in Cirion's time.
Also, the population of Gondor is not explicitly descended from the Faithful- it was a mixed bag when Isildur and Anarion arrived, which is how Westron came to be. Faramir's own house did not need to marry only into Numenorean descendants, and Gondor's armies are made out of several kinds of Men, from the Elvish-like Imrahil to the fat Forlong to hill-men. The biases against the Elves might come from these non-Numenorean people- but it's more of a case of not seeing the Elves for centuries, which might explain how Belfalas still respects them in song, as they had lived there once. Even the Rohirrim, who Faramir calls Men of the Twilight are placed below Dunedain in Faramir's reckoning- not even using their proper name, the Eorlingas or Riders of the Mark for them.
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