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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Heart Wrenching story i think more than the Trilogy.What about you.???(spoilers)
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AlatarVinyamar
Lorien

Mar 22 2011, 5:37pm

Post #26 of 37 (259 views)
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'Scuse me? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry?

Gandalf didn't die? Care to support that assertion?


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 22 2011, 5:59pm

Post #27 of 37 (261 views)
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Tragedy [In reply to] Can't Post

Frankly I've always read The Hobbit as a tragedy. Indeed, tragedy is usually what occurs when a mortal enters into Faerie.

At the end I always feel very sad that the fat, happy, blissfully ignorant Bilbo of the first chapter is no more.

******************************************
From IMDB trivia:

"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."

*Darkstone bangs head against wall*


painjoiker
Grey Havens

Mar 22 2011, 6:16pm

Post #28 of 37 (264 views)
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He "died", but came back :P [In reply to] Can't Post

 


macfalk
Valinor


Mar 22 2011, 6:19pm

Post #29 of 37 (242 views)
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Tragedy [In reply to] Can't Post

I also forgot to add that apart from what you said, the old Bilbo is no more, ending the story with Balin is also a sad ending for those familiar with LOTR.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Valinor


Mar 22 2011, 6:20pm

Post #30 of 37 (247 views)
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Of course he died [In reply to] Can't Post

but he was revived. Since Gandalf is not a human being, it's harder to feel scared that he may die since he is not human and can be revived by the gods. Thorin is just a humble (or not so humble, some may say) dwarf, much easier to empathise with. That said, Gandalf is one of my fav characters, though.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Mar 22 2011, 6:21pm)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 22 2011, 6:21pm

Post #31 of 37 (262 views)
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PJ's casting of Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

...strongly suggests that he is going to make him into a much more sympathetic character than he was in the book (where I found him rather arrogant and greedy). I think that's probably a good thing, although I do not think The Hobbit is primarily a tragedy. It should retain an overall light tone, with whatever tragedy is associated with Thorin used to add depth and perspective to the story.






Sign up NOW for chapter discussions of LotR The Two Towers, Book IV! Discussion starts April 2!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'

(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Mar 22 2011, 6:23pm)


macfalk
Valinor


Mar 22 2011, 6:24pm

Post #32 of 37 (253 views)
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Elizabeth [In reply to] Can't Post

I respect your opinion but party disagreed about the tone - since the tone of the book in the end is nowhere near light-hearted, I think it should stay as it is, more darker towards the end. But that's just me Cool



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 22 2011, 6:47pm

Post #33 of 37 (245 views)
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I tried but.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...after a few chapters I just got too mad at how the guy changed stuff for no reason at all. He moved dialogue around, added a bunch of goofy new characters like Tom Bomberdale and Glorfinkle, cut out a lot of great stuff like the Elves at Helm's Deep, utterly changed characters like Faramir, Theoden, and Treebeard, just about entirely eliminated Arwen, and I don't want to even talk about what he did with Aragorn! I mean, it was absolutely awful! I wanted to throw up! He just totally ruined the movies!! Whoever hired this Tolkien guy to do the novelizations for the films should be fired!!!

******************************************
From IMDB trivia:

"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."

*Darkstone bangs head against wall*


Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 22 2011, 7:27pm

Post #34 of 37 (235 views)
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You're right... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it's definitely darker toward the end, and I'm comfortable with Jackson's using Thorin as a more sympathetic character (like Boromir), assuming that's his intention. But I still think overall the book is not intended as a tragedy.






Sign up NOW for chapter discussions of LotR The Two Towers, Book IV! Discussion starts April 2!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 22 2011, 8:14pm

Post #35 of 37 (225 views)
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Childrens' stories [In reply to] Can't Post

...have historically been quite violent. Red Riding Hood's grandma was eaten by a wolf, and Red was, too. Hansel and Gretel were sent into a dangerous wood by their parents, encountered a witch who turned children into cakes, and threw her in her own oven. The stories of Hans Christian Anderson and the Brothers Grimm are full of violence. It's really only in modern times that we've felt the need to sanitize tales for children.






Join us in the Reading Room for LotR The Two Towers, Book IV! Discussion starts March 27!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


StephenIbach
The Shire


Mar 22 2011, 9:02pm

Post #36 of 37 (214 views)
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Tolkien was a genius [In reply to] Can't Post

He wrote these books not as allegory, but what he liked to call applicability. He even noted this in his forward to LOTR. He therefore allowed anyone who read these books to take the story and apply it to their lives as they could at their time in life. Different people live different lives and different stories hit at different emotional points and struggles going on in each and every one of us. These emotions are constantly changing. That is why these books are at different times more applicable than others. Sometimes The Hobbit hits me one way one day and then could not the next. The same for LOTR. The same for life. These books are simply stunning, amazing, and unique for that single fact. They affect us differently every time we read them. We are constantly changing. The fact of the matter is that they are just "damn good stories" as the Tolkien scholar said in the EE appendices.

In Norman Oklahoma there lived a Hobbit...


DrDeath153
Lorien

Mar 23 2011, 12:06pm

Post #37 of 37 (1213 views)
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The story is not a tragedy but there are some tragic elements to it [In reply to] Can't Post

As fantastically written as the whole arc of Thorin's character is, and as heartbreaking as his fall and fate comes across, he is ultimately a supporting character in the story. The significance ultimately does not lie with what happens to him but rather the effect of it on Bilbo. That's not to say that our sympathies should always lie with Bilbo- in fact it is the crux of his development as a character that he should for a time be reviled by the dwarves; the people he has tried so hard to gain the approval of (and thus the audience too) but the dwarves ultimately represent an outdated mode of heroism and so it is Bilbo's reinterpretation of that code (having been educated in it during his journeys with them) that marks his full development, not as some poor copy or groupie to the dwarven way of life, but as an individual, made truly wise through sound judgement of all the lessons he has learnt without being bound to self-destruction adhering to one single mode.

Anyway, back to the tragedy of Thorin. Yes, it is tragic, and i think it should be played as being tragic. I wouldn't go as far as Macfalk's "dies slowly in agony knowing that not only is he about to die, he has also lost everything. His little confort is to have a last few farewell conversation with Bilbo." For a start, Thorin hasn't lost everything, he's gained more than he ever thought possible- he became King Under the Mountain once more! The tragedy is how he didn't get to enjoy that success; that he allowed himself to be defined by the trappings of Kingship and not the actions of it and so surrendered wisdom for pride.

There has been some suggestion that to portray a sympathetic Thorin, Peter Jackson will have to alter the book, incorporate deeper motivations and more shades of grey than feature in the book, like he did with Boromir (though in many ways Thorin has more in common with Theoden, particularly the film's version), but that's simply rubbish- all the stuff needed for a sympathetic Thorin is there in the book, and indeed as hobbitftw shows, i think many people see the pathos of the character and empathise with him right from the first reading, you just can't identify what makes him so based on his actions alone- a synoptic analysis of the character renders him in a very dim light, but it is how Tolkien has him appear through dialogue and prose that shows him in his true light. The Thorin as written is as complex and as ambiguous a character as any in written fiction or cinema today and so hopefully that will translate onto screen rather than taking the grand misconception that Tolkien writes two-dimensional characters. If he can do that without making Thorin overpower Bilbo in the film then he will have obtained true cinematic genius.

Dr Death

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