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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
LOTR Failures and problem choices which Peter should not repeat in The Hobbit
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sphdle1
Gondor


Jan 19 2011, 5:36pm

Post #126 of 141 (254 views)
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I am a movie-onlyer and [In reply to] Can't Post

I also never thought of Arwen's summoning as being more powerful than Gandalf. I just found that Gandalf looked underwhelming to himself in movies 2 & 3, in comparison to FOTR...especially in the fighting scenes.

BTW I don't recall the witch king breaking his staff...was that in the extended versions?


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 19 2011, 5:40pm

Post #127 of 141 (246 views)
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It's in the RotK extended edition [In reply to] Can't Post

It happens at Minas Tirith.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jan 19 2011, 7:20pm

Post #128 of 141 (223 views)
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The point, as misguided as it was... [In reply to] Can't Post

was that if Gandalf has grown powerful enough to break Saruman's staff, then how powerful must the Witch-King be? Of course, the thought of a corrupted spirit serving Sauron being more powerful than an angelic entity from Valinor is ridiculous...unless Sauron himself was channeling his power through the Witch-King somehow?

Also, notice how the Witch-King's sword is instantly extinguished a moment later? Tongue

Samuel L. Jackson for Bilbo, Woody Allen for Thorin, Lewis Black for Bard and Gilbert Gottfried for Smaug!

MAKE IT HAPPEN, PETER!!!


Bran
Lorien


Jan 19 2011, 7:50pm

Post #129 of 141 (223 views)
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The answer may be in the [In reply to] Can't Post

physical nature of the staff.

At the end of the day it was only wood. Gandalf could be killed, Saruman could be killed, but only in their physical manifestations. They were, during this time, little more than flesh and blood.

Therefore, whatever power the staff contained, it was physically still wood.

Just a guess.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 19 2011, 10:29pm

Post #130 of 141 (212 views)
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No it didn't! It NEVER happened. It is a lie! An illusion. [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't give power to an evil illusion!!! And sphndle. . . Don't watch it! The falsity of it burns the eyes! Pirate

In Reply To
It happens at Minas Tirith.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 19 2011, 10:42pm

Post #131 of 141 (215 views)
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BUT I saw it and it happened! [In reply to] Can't Post

A very good point on contradictions. In the Theatrical Edition it is not. In the EE it is canon. Both are true. Both are facts.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jan 19 2011, 10:42pm)


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 19 2011, 10:48pm

Post #132 of 141 (205 views)
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SuperGandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, it's clear that PJ doesn't want a SuperGandalf running around killing 100 orcs per second with magic fire bolts, for good or evil. I'm not sure what to make of that particular Witch King scene, though.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


dormouse
Half-elven

Jan 19 2011, 11:11pm

Post #133 of 141 (208 views)
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Well, it was an exaggerated version.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... of a scene that is in the book, wasn't it, though it actually takes place in the gateway, after Grond breaks through the gate. Pippin cowers back in terror - that happens in film and book, though in the book he hasn't yet told Gandalf about Faramir's funeral pyre, he's on his way to do just that. The Lord of the Nazgul appears to be on a horse, in the book, because it says he rides in through the gate - and flames do run down the blade of his sword when he lifts it into the air (though I think what Tolkien had in mind may have been the light of the fires burning in the city).

But the big difference is that in the book both Gandalf and Shadowfax stand firm - and the confrontation never goes any further because at that moment the horns of Rohan sound, just as they do in the film.

They were upping the tension again, I suppose - and in the book too Gandalf has said that he doesn't know whether he or the Witch King will prove the stronger. I think you have a good point in that comment about 'SuperGandalf' - there's a tight balance between showing him as a figure of immense power and making him so powerful that no enemy stands a chance and he can win all the battles single-handed, so why worry... I certainly think that scene should have shown both Gandalf and Shadowfax ready to face the onslaught and not at the point of defeat - but I think the filmmakers could fairly claim that the scene wasn't entirely made up - it does have its roots in the book.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 19 2011, 11:37pm

Post #134 of 141 (211 views)
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One of my most favorite scenes in the Book and Peter should have done just as Tolkien did. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that it is an egregious attack on GanDalf's power and iot is good that it was left out of the Theatrical. Part of the problem was Peters putting The WK on a fell beast rather than a horse as in the book. The WK picks up his beast after the showdown with Gandalf. I also think the flame on the sword thing was Tolkien using ambiguity to have it both ways. Very Poetic.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 20 2011, 2:30am

Post #135 of 141 (200 views)
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No, just a superArwen who can drown Nazgul with a chant. [In reply to] Can't Post

What's clear is that Peter thinks he knows beter than Tolkien, and Gandalf has suffered because of it. Do you think Peter knows better than Tolkien? Whose version are we to put the greater credit to? The Books, or whatever dam*ed revisionist choice Peter Jackson decides to make? No one in this entire thread has asked or suggested that there be a SuperGandalf running around killing hundreds of orcs per second. What we have asked, is that instead of neutering Gandalf's powers whilst simultaneously ginning up the abilities of others in the work, that Peter incorporate, in a tastefull but nonetheless impressive manner, those feats of Wizardry which Gandalf is clearly and plainly described as doing in the book, rather than subjecting everyone to his personal tastes and distastes, novels be damned.

In Reply To
Well, it's clear that PJ doesn't want a SuperGandalf running around killing 100 orcs per second with magic fire bolts, for good or evil. I'm not sure what to make of that particular Witch King scene, though.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 20 2011, 2:34am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 20 2011, 2:33am

Post #136 of 141 (201 views)
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Actually, mortal weapons could no longer harm Gandalf after his reincarnation. [In reply to] Can't Post

He plainly says this, even though Aragorn is in possession of Anduril at the time. I can understand them not playing that particular fact up in the film, but there it is, all the same.

In Reply To
physical nature of the staff.

At the end of the day it was only wood. Gandalf could be killed, Saruman could be killed, but only in their physical manifestations. They were, during this time, little more than flesh and blood.

Therefore, whatever power the staff contained, it was physically still wood.

Just a guess.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 20 2011, 2:37am

Post #137 of 141 (186 views)
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Nope, you didn't [In reply to] Can't Post

Your eyes were decieved by some spell of The Enemy. It was a deception sent to you by Sauron's power to shake your faith in one of his chief adversaries, but in the end, it was only a lie. A foul, filth, abhorrent lie. Now, put away the imaginings of darkness Angelic

In Reply To
A very good point on contradictions. In the Theatrical Edition it is not. In the EE it is canon. Both are true. Both are facts.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 20 2011, 2:37am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 20 2011, 2:43am

Post #138 of 141 (193 views)
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The problem is they upped the tension excessively [In reply to] Can't Post

And ignored the lore, and made a leap, with an outcome that was, at best, highly unlikely. Gandalf' broke Saruman's staff by authority of The Valar. Gandalf The Gray had defeated a Balrog, by Tolkien's own reckoning a more dreadful opponent than any Nazgul, the second most potent force of known evil remaining upon the face of Middle Earth, next to Sauron himself, and by the account of an Elf Prince "of ALL Elf Banes the most deadly, save He who sits in The Dark Tower." A Maia Demon, and a lieutenant, not of Sauron, but of Melkor The Morgoth. A terror even unto The High Elves, who have no fear of Ringwraiths. Besides, Gandalf had already established in TTT that he was mightier than any other known being in Middle Earth save Sauron himself. What Tolkien did in ROTK was try to reinstate a little dramatic tension, while not flatly contradicting the tenants he had already made plain earlier in the text. Peter should have taken the hint. Thank God it only appears in the EE, which doesn't really exist anyway Wink. Though there is an EE version of Fellowship, and it is superior to the theatrical. lol

In Reply To
... of a scene that is in the book, wasn't it, though it actually takes place in the gateway, after Grond breaks through the gate. Pippin cowers back in terror - that happens in film and book, though in the book he hasn't yet told Gandalf about Faramir's funeral pyre, he's on his way to do just that. The Lord of the Nazgul appears to be on a horse, in the book, because it says he rides in through the gate - and flames do run down the blade of his sword when he lifts it into the air (though I think what Tolkien had in mind may have been the light of the fires burning in the city).

But the big difference is that in the book both Gandalf and Shadowfax stand firm - and the confrontation never goes any further because at that moment the horns of Rohan sound, just as they do in the film.

They were upping the tension again, I suppose - and in the book too Gandalf has said that he doesn't know whether he or the Witch King will prove the stronger. I think you have a good point in that comment about 'SuperGandalf' - there's a tight balance between showing him as a figure of immense power and making him so powerful that no enemy stands a chance and he can win all the battles single-handed, so why worry... I certainly think that scene should have shown both Gandalf and Shadowfax ready to face the onslaught and not at the point of defeat - but I think the filmmakers could fairly claim that the scene wasn't entirely made up - it does have its roots in the book.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 20 2011, 8:57pm

Post #139 of 141 (149 views)
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Gandalf has no staff [In reply to] Can't Post

in the next scene after the Witch-King breaks it.


Quote
What makes matters worse is that Gandalf has his staff again when he is next seen did he mend it?


He rides in empty-handed and grabs a spear from a soldier as he enters to confront Denethor on the pyre. (I recall that people had already commented on the boards about that missing staff long before the EE was released.)

Gandalf has several staffs over the course of the movies. They seem to act to channel his innate power, rather than being powerful in themselves. So breaking Saruman's staff would prevent him from "casting" magical spells, even if the staff itself has no innate magic. (And it's symbolic too, of course - as is the Witch-King's breaking of Gandalf's staff.)

I don't like the WiKi/Gandalf confrontation in the film, and I can see why it got cut. But I think the point they were going for is that WiKi actually was capable of beating Gandalf - it's implied in the book that the showdown between the two of them could go either way, but the showdown never happens because the horns of Rohan sound at the crucial moment. As also happens in the film, except that in the film they decided to show a bit of action first, presumably intended to give a sense of the Rohirrim arriving "in the nick of time", and perhaps also to give WiKi the prestige that would make Eowyn's victory all the more miraculous.

But I still don't like that EE scene - Gandalf looks like he's already given up by the time the horns sound. I don't have a particular problem with the staff breaking, if it's replaceable and not magical in itself, but I do have a problem with Gandalf looking as if he has no idea what to do next...

And anyway, for me at least, that moment when the horns sound is too hair-raisingly perfect to be overlaid on this messy little scene.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 20 2011, 9:37pm

Post #140 of 141 (129 views)
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My mistake [In reply to] Can't Post

but that doesn't change the fact that Gandalf inexplicably produces an identical new staff when his old one is broken. It has always bothered me.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Jan 21 2011, 6:33am

Post #141 of 141 (274 views)
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I have a problem with the whole blasted thing, but I agree with you whole heartedly at the last point. [In reply to] Can't Post

A Balrog is innately worse than a Nazgul within Tolkien's cosmology, especially the more fleshed out and settled it became. Gandalf's staff (in the book) breaks due to overexpenditure (as he had already expended a great deal of magic in a dreadful contest of wizardry with The Balrog over control of the door to The Chamber of Marzabul, a contest which he described as the greatest challange he could recall encoutnering, and this even in light of his battle with all nine Nazgul Lords earlier in the same book) after he destroys the bridge, yet he fights for Ten days with the demonic lieutenant of Melkor The Morgoth, and still employs magic, even without the staff, in both the books account and in the film ( I deem it at least reasonably supernatural to summon lightning to one's sword). So, yes, even with a broken staff, which it seems unlikely that any servant of Sauron or once human wraith, however sorcerous, would have the power to do, it doesn't stand to reason that Gandalf would just lay there waiting for the end, especially with a great Elf blade still in his keeping.

In Reply To
in the next scene after the Witch-King breaks it.


Quote
What makes matters worse is that Gandalf has his staff again when he is next seen did he mend it?


He rides in empty-handed and grabs a spear from a soldier as he enters to confront Denethor on the pyre. (I recall that people had already commented on the boards about that missing staff long before the EE was released.)

Gandalf has several staffs over the course of the movies. They seem to act to channel his innate power, rather than being powerful in themselves. So breaking Saruman's staff would prevent him from "casting" magical spells, even if the staff itself has no innate magic. (And it's symbolic too, of course - as is the Witch-King's breaking of Gandalf's staff.)

I don't like the WiKi/Gandalf confrontation in the film, and I can see why it got cut. But I think the point they were going for is that WiKi actually was capable of beating Gandalf - it's implied in the book that the showdown between the two of them could go either way, but the showdown never happens because the horns of Rohan sound at the crucial moment. As also happens in the film, except that in the film they decided to show a bit of action first, presumably intended to give a sense of the Rohirrim arriving "in the nick of time", and perhaps also to give WiKi the prestige that would make Eowyn's victory all the more miraculous.

But I still don't like that EE scene - Gandalf looks like he's already given up by the time the horns sound. I don't have a particular problem with the staff breaking, if it's replaceable and not magical in itself, but I do have a problem with Gandalf looking as if he has no idea what to do next...

And anyway, for me at least, that moment when the horns sound is too hair-raisingly perfect to be overlaid on this messy little scene.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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