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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How many of Gollum's and Bilbo's riddles should they sneak in?
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 11 2010, 8:05pm

Post #51 of 70 (177 views)
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I don't think Christopher Tolkien necessarily "gets" how to best protect his father's work... [In reply to] Can't Post

he's done an insane amount to expand the amount of material on Middle-earth, for which I'll be eternally grateful, but his almost fanatical attempt to prevent anyone else from contributing to his father's world has a "desperate" zeal. Having others make films, (or books), based on Tolkien's world will not dilute the original work. Just look at H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos; countless authors have written works based on his style and world, (to varying success), but they don't replace or subvert the original works...if anything, they expand the scope of Lovecraft's world and keep him in the current literary eye.

Samuel L. Jackson for Bilbo, Woody Allen for Thorin, Lewis Black for Bard and Gilbert Gottfried for Smaug!

MAKE IT HAPPEN, PETER!!!


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 11 2010, 8:33pm

Post #52 of 70 (171 views)
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A little presumptuous? [In reply to] Can't Post

Who better than his own son? The son who received dispatches from his father while the stories were being written? Anyone might disagree with how Christopher Tolkien has protected his father's legacy, but I doubt anyone knows better than Christopher how to do it.


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 11 2010, 8:34pm

Post #53 of 70 (170 views)
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Dunno [In reply to] Can't Post

Unlike with a lot of authors, the Tolkien Estate has not interfered with the distribution of non-commercial fan fiction. (Legal action is vigorously pursued against publication for profit, of course.) Tolkien himself indignantly refused permission for the publication of at least two fan written LOTR sequels. That shows CT is probably merely respecting his father's wishes.

On the other hand, Jackson and Co. on more than one occasion allowed little tidbits from Tolkien's other writing to appear in the LOTR films, but CT did not take any action to halt the films, even though he would have been well within his legal rights to do so. So it's not like he's just a grumpy old meanie.

******************************************
NARFOT since 1967.

NARFOP since 2001.

I'm NARFOB and I'm proud!!


geordie
Tol Eressea

Nov 11 2010, 9:31pm

Post #54 of 70 (165 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Christopher does get a bad press (literally, sometimes). I think a little perspective might be useful. As has been said, there's a terrific amount of Middle-earth material which has been published since Tolkien died - far more than was published while he was alive. But there's more to Tolkien than Middle-earth. The dearest ting to old JRR's heart was in fact, Middle English. And the first of his father's works which Christopher published were JRR's translations of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight; Pearl; and Sir Ofeo (1975). Since then, we've had the invaluable collection titled 'The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays', and also the updated 'Tree and Leaf', with Tolkien's poem 'Mythopoeia' (whereby hangs a tale).

And Christopher has not been hogging all the hard work for himself; oh, no. Smile When he's deemed it necessary, and fruitful, he's 'farmed out' editions to folk whom he could trust to do a good job. Can anyone guess which of his father's works were the first to receive an editorial hand other than that of Christopher? No, nothing to do with Middle-earth - Christopher invited two fellow academics to edit sets of JRR's lecture notes. The results were 'Exodus', ed. by Tolkien's former pupil Joan Turville-Petre; and 'Finn and Hengest: The Fragment and the Episode', ed. by Alan Bliss.

Other editions by other hands include works edited by Hammond and Scull (JRR Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator; Roverandom; 50th anniversary Farmer Giles of Ham; ditto LotR), and Verlyn Flieger, Michael Drout, and Doug Anderson. Not to mention the vast amount of work undertaken by a group specializing in Tolkien's invented languages. And we can bet that, as these items get published, each one of them must be as good as Christopher himself would have edited them.

Young Christopher has been indefatigable in his efforts to get his father's unpublished material out to the world. I for one applaud him.


(This post was edited by geordie on Nov 11 2010, 9:33pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 11 2010, 9:52pm

Post #55 of 70 (150 views)
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entmaiden, not sure I understand... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Anyone might disagree with how Christopher Tolkien has protected his father's legacy, but I doubt anyone knows better than Christopher how to do it".

This seem contradictory to me? Anyhoo, no one's arguing that CT knows the most ABOUT his father's work, but I'm sure he understands the modern literary world, in THIS regard. Wouldn't it be great to get new novels set in Middle-earth? Personally, "Children of Hurin" just whet my appetite. CT just seems too over-protective to me...


Samuel L. Jackson for Bilbo, Woody Allen for Thorin, Lewis Black for Bard and Gilbert Gottfried for Smaug!

MAKE IT HAPPEN, PETER!!!


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 11 2010, 9:53pm

Post #56 of 70 (150 views)
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Are you sure about that? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
On the other hand, Jackson and Co. on more than one occasion allowed little tidbits from Tolkien's other writing to appear in the LOTR films, but CT did not take any action to halt the films, even though he would have been well within his legal rights to do so.

Are you sure he had the power to halt the films? If he could have done such a thing, I imagine he would have, judging purely from his staunch refusal to allow any of his father's posthumously-published works to be adapted. Are you saying he has a very different attitude to the idea of LotR films than he does to the idea of, say, Silmarillion films?


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 11 2010, 10:09pm

Post #57 of 70 (151 views)
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New Middle-earth novels [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel conflicted about this idea. I certainly wouldn't want the Tolkien Estate to authorise and endorse one or two 'official' sequels; that would blur the line between canon and fan-fiction in quite an uncomfortable way. I would feel as if they were trying to replace the author in some way.

But I do love the idea of Tolkien's works eventually going public-domain, just like Lovecraft's. Imagine a world where any writer can freely write and publish as many Middle-earth sequels, prequels, spin-offs, short stories and novels as they want; people could adhere stringently to Tolkien's canon, or they could contribute their own characters and locations and change whatever they want. It wouldn't matter – because it's only fan-fiction. An entire genre would develop around Tolkien's world, and it would contain hundreds of times more stories than he could ever have created himself. We'd have alternative film and game and comic-book adaptations popping up all over the place. People could finish their own versions of stories like The Notion Club Papers, and Of Tuor And His Coming To Gondolin, and The New Shadow. There would probably be more than a few Cthulhu Mythos crossovers. It would be crazy!

Or rather, it will be crazy. Since all of this is actually going to happen in a mere century or so. Evil


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 11 2010, 10:12pm

Post #58 of 70 (145 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

For example, the illustration of the Ring of Barahir in Saruman's book is straight from the Sil.

Strider's dialogue describing the Ringwraiths to the hobbits in Bree is virtually word for word from HoME.

There are several other instances.

CT could have used any and all as excuses to file a court order to have the films withdrawn from release and have those items removed, plus try to sue for some punative awards.

He didn't.

******************************************
NARFOT since 1967.

NARFOP since 2001.

I'm NARFOB and I'm proud!!


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Nov 11 2010, 10:12pm

Post #59 of 70 (147 views)
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Good point. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But a lot of people read these forums, and not all of them read every thread. Someone just coming in cold and reading that post would think that Doug Anderson was being called spiteful.

Thanks for the reminder about the danger of regular contributors relying too much on assumed context.


Quote
Since he is a friend of mine, I felt it necessary to make it clear that that is simply not true. I don't believe that calling someone that you don't know "spiteful" is funny, no matter what the circumstances are.

For a moment reading this, I was struck by the ways in which the internet makes it possible for two people who have never met to be friends. But then, of course it was true in the days of paper correspondence as well. Prominent in my mind at the moment is the friendship that Diana Glyer traced in her epistolary reading at Mythcon this summer, The Major and the Missionary, between Warren Lewis in Oxford and Lucy Blanche Biggs in New Guinea.

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Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 11 2010, 10:19pm

Post #60 of 70 (144 views)
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CT already allows all that. [In reply to] Can't Post

I can write, draw, film, etc. and post on the net or pass around to my friends any fanfic Tolkien I can come up with.

But the moment I try to make money off it the Tolkien Estate will come down on me like a ton of bricks.

******************************************
NARFOT since 1967.

NARFOP since 2001.

I'm NARFOB and I'm proud!!


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 11 2010, 10:31pm

Post #61 of 70 (138 views)
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Not trying to demean Christopher Tolkien, BTW... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just don't agree with his stance on this particular point.

He did kind-of give us 12 volumes of "History of Middle-earth" and "Children of Hurin", however...

Samuel L. Jackson for Bilbo, Woody Allen for Thorin, Lewis Black for Bard and Gilbert Gottfried for Smaug!

MAKE IT HAPPEN, PETER!!!


lurtz2010
Rohan

Nov 11 2010, 10:54pm

Post #62 of 70 (125 views)
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I have no idea what these people are talking about now // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Nov 11 2010, 11:22pm

Post #63 of 70 (122 views)
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Right [In reply to] Can't Post

And considering how strong some (certainly not all, but some) Tolkien fan fiction and fan art is, I'm immensely grateful that the Tolkien estate allows us fans to dabble in the nonprofit fun of sharing our thoughts- and stories- in Middle-earth. And there are some authors that do, which is really not the best way to connect to your fans...

Frankly put, I would be nowhere near the writer I am today without the experience. I have somewhere around 1,000 (non double space) pages of Tolkien fan fic produced over the last 7 years. To say what I write today is better than what I wrote when I started at 13 (ugh) would be the understatement of the century.

I want to give C. Tolkien a big hug simply because of that... nonetheless the Silmarillion, UT, and all of HoMe. Granted, he may be a little disturbed by this random American hugging him... Laugh

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Lausus
Bree


Nov 12 2010, 2:38am

Post #64 of 70 (127 views)
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Perfect! [In reply to] Can't Post

All the riddles should be there. Cutting to different scenes inbetween riddles is probably the best way to do it too. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the viewers' love of Gollum. Even people who knew nothing about LotR when they saw the trilogy love Gollum. Riddles in the Dark is the only legitimate place to present Gollum some more. I think they'll make full use of this opportunity to show off Andy Serkis' talents with lots of riddles and suspense. I can't wait.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Nov 12 2010, 5:11am

Post #65 of 70 (107 views)
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Who are "these people"? [In reply to] Can't Post

You replied to yourself.

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Discuss Tolkien’s life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 12 2010, 5:11pm

Post #66 of 70 (88 views)
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Not quite [In reply to] Can't Post

He does allow his father's work to be used as a basis for non-profit fan-fiction – the vast majority of writers do. But this is very different from a work being in the public domain. If Middle-earth was public domain, anyone at all could actually publish their work – you could walk into a bookshop and see shelves lined with Middle-earth stories by different authors. No longer would unofficial material be confined to the internet. And the potential profit could actually incentivise professional writers to try their hand at Tolkien, rather than just leaving it to the fans.

While it's technically possible to make your own LotR films, games, comic books etc (Born of Hope and The Hunt for Gollum spring to mind), these efforts are few and far between. No studio will ever invest in a project that it knows it can't make money from. But if Tolkien's work was public domain, it would see as many different adaptations, interpretations and expansions as Alice in Wonderland, or Sherlock Holmes, or the Cthulhu Mythos. These would range from low-key fan-projects to big-budget blockbuster efforts. It would also mean that non-Tolkien fan-fic writers could incorporate Tolkien elements into their own commercial works – for example, characters and locations from Lovecraft's books appear in hundreds of different stories. But if you want to use a Tolkien character in one of your stories, you simply won't be able to publish it.

I would love for Tolkien's legendarium to be released from copyright, and become a part of our culture that can be used freely by anyone in any way they wish, just like a genuine mythology.


Wraith Buster
Gondor


Nov 15 2010, 12:23am

Post #67 of 70 (58 views)
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As many as possible! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

If our honorable friend continues to scrape the bottom of the barrel for objections he is in danger of getting splinters under his nails.



lurtz2010
Rohan

Nov 15 2010, 8:12am

Post #68 of 70 (58 views)
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Those people posting before me [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't replying directly to anyone else and I don't know how to post without posting in reply to someone else so I replied to myself ok? please stop yelling at me.


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 15 2010, 8:35am

Post #69 of 70 (58 views)
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I don't think N.E.Brigand was yelling at you [In reply to] Can't Post

It's just that your post stating "I have no idea what these people are talking about now" seems a bit confusing without context (especially since you replied to yourself).

I suppose you were referring to the fact that you began this thread with the intent of asking which of Bilbo's/Gollum's riddles should stay in the movie, whereas the conversation has steered itself in another direction. That's okay. And in fact, it's partly what the "Threaded Mode" is meant for. Many-a-times conversations sprout up within a main topic that have no real connection to the main topic, but if you view the boards in "Threaded Mode", you won't find the off-topic posts confusing at all.

By the way, I'm finding both the main topic and the off-topic conversations in this thread equally interesting, so thanks for initiating them Smile



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 15 2010, 8:38am

Post #70 of 70 (82 views)
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I don't think [In reply to] Can't Post

he meant to yell at you, but the phrasing and placement of your post were a little confusing. It wasn't clear which people were "these" people.

If you want to make a general reply to a thread, this is how: click on the "reply to this post" link in the very first message of the thread. For people reading in Threaded, your post will show up as a reply to the root post, and for people reading in Flat, it will show up at the end of the thread as usual. I hope that helps. Smile

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories

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