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I think we would have to agree to disagree :)

December
Registered User

Jan 27 2013, 7:48am


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I think we would have to agree to disagree :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we would have to agree to disagree :)

I don't believe that if it's marriage, the wife automatically says "yes". If the marriage was forced, i.e. against her will, why would she fully consent to sexual intercourse? Because she feels she has to? That is called coercion, and legally still rape, even if it's wrapped in the nice-looking package of marriage. She may not struggle physically and demand that he stop, but if he knows that he is doing it against her will, then it is rape - maybe not violent rape, but rape nonetheless.

In regards to your second point - exactly, if we go along with what Tolkien himself had said about Middle-earth being our own world at an earlier time, then it would mean the laws of human nature had changed. And why would they? Yes, magic may have gone away, together with the non-human peoples and creatures that were capable of it, but the fundamental workings of the human mind, body, and heart - why would that change? Tolkien's people want all the same things that we do: happiness, love, security, power, glory, self-respect, acceptance, admiration, excitement, etc. - none of that had become any different over time. Why would sexuality and the nature of love?

Not to mention that this whole notion of "sex can only exist in a life-long monogamous heterosexual married couple, and primarily for making children, and once you stop making children, your interest in sex wanes" - to the best of my knowledge, that is a very Christian thing. Other big religions tend to allow more leeway, and recognise sexuality, even if only male sexuality, as a thing in its own right, connected to but not fully chained to love and marriage. It is only in strict Christianity that sexual desire as such is viewed as sin and a bad thing, a temptation from the devil, etc. Maybe this is why it often embarrasses and outrages Western readers to see sexual interpretations of Tolkien's work - because deep down we still believe that sex is shameful and low and dirty, and somehow degrades the characters and the work's artistic merit. And as Tolkien purposefully made Middle-earth free of religion, other than to show it in negative forms as the Numenoreans' Morgoth-worshipping, it seems a natural course of action for him to ascribe to the laws of nature what in fact is a product of society in general and religion specifically. But that, again, does not connect to the other things we see or he tells us about Middle-earth.

Subject User Time
Priest, Prophet, and King CelebornReturns Send a private message to CelebornReturns Jul 23 2010, 8:43pm
    I agree that Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 24 2010, 11:17am
    Do now thy office! squire Send a private message to squire Jul 25 2010, 12:55am
        While Tolkien was obviously influenced Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 26 2010, 2:38pm
    Slight Distinction CelebornReturns Send a private message to CelebornReturns Jul 25 2010, 9:19pm
    A note about self-sacrifice or not: Gandalf CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 26 2010, 5:05pm
        Intentions CelebornReturns Send a private message to CelebornReturns Jul 26 2010, 8:18pm
            "they chose to fight - not for themselves, but for the good of others" squire Send a private message to squire Jul 26 2010, 9:53pm
        Galadriel was supposed to be the representation of Mary, Lord of Magic Send a private message to Lord of Magic Jul 29 2010, 2:33am
            Gandalf - the "Elf with da Wand" - may have been a virgin, but... squire Send a private message to squire Jul 29 2010, 3:08am
                Unless you believe Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 29 2010, 2:49pm
                    You only have to believe FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jul 29 2010, 4:13pm
                        How has history always been written? Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 29 2010, 4:45pm
                            Consummation = marriage. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Jul 29 2010, 6:38pm
                                Thanks. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 29 2010, 7:06pm
                            If it's so hard FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jul 29 2010, 9:45pm
                                Yes, I already conceded Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 29 2010, 10:07pm
                                    Tolkien also never says FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jul 30 2010, 1:48pm
                                        Could you believe Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 30 2010, 2:29pm
                                            Yes, that works FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jul 30 2010, 7:09pm
                                    What about Lord of Magic Send a private message to Lord of Magic Jul 31 2010, 1:25am
                                        Yes, that was a forced marriage. Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 31 2010, 6:50am
                                            Eöl was powerful Lord of Magic Send a private message to Lord of Magic Aug 1 2010, 3:54pm
                                    And yet December Send a private message to December Jan 26 2013, 9:19pm
                                        Very nice squire Send a private message to squire Jan 27 2013, 12:12am
                                            Especially in inter-racial marriages, hm? December Send a private message to December Jan 27 2013, 1:04am
                                        Yes, no means no, but in forced marriages, Curious Send a private message to Curious Jan 27 2013, 2:24am
                                            Most astonishing! dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Jan 27 2013, 2:45am
                                            I think we would have to agree to disagree :) December Send a private message to December Jan 27 2013, 7:48am
                        Love as a "distraction" from the story; Celebrian CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jul 29 2010, 6:10pm
                            As to Celebrian, Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 29 2010, 7:26pm
            In a letter Tolkien embraced the comparison Curious Send a private message to Curious Jul 29 2010, 2:59pm
    To be honest... Morthoron Send a private message to Morthoron Aug 1 2010, 2:12am

 
 
 

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