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why was Faramir not tempted by the Ring?
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squire
Valinor


Jul 14 2010, 3:11pm

Post #76 of 98 (200 views)
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How does that work? [In reply to] Can't Post

If we accept the commonplace that people's natures are variable and range from "better natures" to "worse natures", what then does it mean to say that we are acting "according to our natures" when we, in a specific moment of choice, act for the "worse"? It seems to say that if you are capable of evil, you are already inescapably evil. That is rather circular.

I don't think that's what's being portrayed by these characters' behaviors regarding the Ring, at any rate. Consider the portrait of Boromir during the moment he loses control and attacks Frodo:

'For I am too strong for you, halfling,’ he cried; and suddenly he sprang over the stone and leaped at Frodo. His fair and pleasant face was hideously changed; a raging fire was in his eyes. (LotR II.10)
As written, this is not a man who has been evil all along and suddenly reveals himself when the Ring comes within his grasp. Rather the scene is consistent with all the other instances of the Ring's effect on great and powerful persons: Boromir was tested to resist the temptation of the Ring, which his own native talent for leadership and power made him vulnerable to. The Ring appeals to ones instinct to use power to do good - but through evil means, which only a native sense of high morality can recognize and refuse. In particular this scene contrasts directly with Galadriel's moment of temptation just a few chapters back. She too is 'hideously changed' ('terrible and worshipful') but pulls back at the last possible second; Boromir unfortunately does not. Unlike Gandalf, Strider, Elrond, Galadriel and later Faramir, Boromir fails the test.

Why should we doubt Boromir's virtue, or call him "corrupt from the beginning", because of this? On the one hand, his fall is foreshadowed by the writing and so in retrospect we accept it as realistic. But on the other hand, his goodness and nobility (like Denethor's) are equally presented, so that we can feel the power of the Ring on the great folk of the West. The whole point of the Ring is that power (the ability to dominate others' wills) is inherently fraught with moral peril. As Elrond tells us, the Ring only tempts those who can make use of it.

It is rather sophistic to continue debating whether the Ring or the will to power of the great person is the source of the temptation, rather like debating whether guns or people kill people. Clearly both elements are required: since only the powerful can use the Ring, only the powerful are tempted. As noted, this explains instantly why the rest of the Fellowship do not attempt to seize the Ring. It is above the natures of the other hobbits, the Elf and the Dwarf; while Gandalf and Aragorn have already confronted and mastered their own responses to the Ring. That leaves only Boromir. His growing conflict that ends with his assault on Frodo is clearly pictured as the consequence of traveling alongside it for so long. To repeat Elrond's words, 'The very desire of it corrupts the heart'. He is describing a process, and we witness the process taking place over several weeks in Boromir's heart.

If Boromir was so evil from the beginning, clearly he would never have been allowed to travel with the Company. Gandalf later admits he did not think Boromir would fail the test, and notes that Galadriel, with more grounds for suspicion, also let him go on with Frodo:
‘Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end.' (LotR III.5)
Boromir's death is seen by Aragorn and Gandalf as a redemption, and also shows that his fall was barely over the edge - it barely happened. His better nature and his worse nature were in conflict; the worse triumphed for a moment but only due to the Ring's influence over a long period of time and at the crisis point of finally having to part ways with it. Thanks to Frodo's quick wits and the fateful luck of knocking himself out, Boromir's better nature reasserted itself almost instantly. Had he still been under the influence of the Ring after Frodo escaped, he would not have defended Merry and Pippin, but would have continued to hunt down Frodo - one could imagine (as Tolkien did in an earlier draft) Boromir fighting it out in a duel with Aragorn.

One can say that Boromir was always corruptible, but so are all the others who are tempted by but decide to foreswear the Ring. Corruptible does not mean corrupt, no more than having a "worse nature" compels one always to act according to it.



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Curious
Half-elven


Jul 14 2010, 4:34pm

Post #77 of 98 (182 views)
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You think Galadriels' tranformation [In reply to] Can't Post

was the work of the Ring? That she had no control over it? That Frodo -- nay, the whole world, was in genuine danger? I've never interpreted it that way. I've always thought she was just showing Frodo why she could not take it. I think both interpretations are valid.

As for Boromir, I'm willing to contemplate that the Ring transformed his visage, but are you willing to contemplate that his temptation was not influenced by the Ring? That he was just tempted, in the ordinary sense of that word? I don't think the evidence is conclusive either way. Do you?


squire
Valinor


Jul 14 2010, 5:16pm

Post #78 of 98 (177 views)
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I'm willing to contemplate that we are getting nowhere [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course all interpretations of these scenes are valid, to the readers that make them. What does that mean, anyway? No interpretation of literature is factual, after all, and proof is never possible in discussions like these. We are trading interpretations for the fun of the exercise itself, and the fun of learning from others. Of course we strive for civility here. I hope I haven't offended anyone by implying they are "wrong" in their reading of the Ring's nature in The Lord of the Rings. But that doesn't mean I should say that everyone's readings are equally "right", either, or pretend I don't believe in my own argument.

I have showed you all the evidence I could, that made an argument conclusive to me. That is, after I read and thought about the relevant passages, I concluded - made my interpretation and felt prepared to present it to others like you and the rest of the board. Obviously, I do think my evidence is conclusive both that his desire for the Ring transformed Boromir's visage, and that his temptation to seize the Ring from Frodo was influenced by the Ring. But how can I ensure you will conclude the same things from my evidence and reasoning? In the end I can't. I feel that to try further would simply mean repeating myself for a third time, which seems unproductive. And it doesn't bother me very much if we don't agree in the end; we have a lot of water under the bridge by now.



squire online:
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FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 14 2010, 5:31pm

Post #79 of 98 (170 views)
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Thanks for the quote [In reply to] Can't Post

And thanks for giving such a long passage - very useful for me since I couldn't look it up myself.

Despite the "not a moral failure" statement, the gist of Tolkien's letter seems to be saying essentially what I was arguing - that Frodo is saved by Providence because of the great sacrifices he had already made - as Tolkien puts it, "his failure was redressed." Not that he didn't fail at all, but that he earned redemption. As did Boromir, and as Denethor and Saruman both failed (through their pride) to do - deliberately refusing all Gandalf's efforts to give them the chance to make amends for their failure.

So I think it's too much to draw from this letter that the quality of the temptation was different for Frodo than for others (whether or not they came into physical contact with the Ring). The difference is only in the intensity - and Frodo's ultimate redemption from failure is due not to the fact that he was facing a "magical" and irresistible force, but because he struggled to the last to resist his temptation - and because of his mercy to Gollum.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



PhantomS
Rohan


Jul 14 2010, 5:33pm

Post #80 of 98 (180 views)
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innocence [In reply to] Can't Post

Merry and Pippin barely understand what the Ring truly is, and what it means to be around it. It is not particularly bothered with them either, since they have no noticable power or desire for power. They've come along for Frodo and Sam, hopefully to dump this silly thing and to go home. The Ring is probably not going to try to influence people who have come just to be company. The Palantir was different because Sauron himself was on the direct line, waiting for an answer from Saruman. Even Aragorn had to fulfill his Palantir-craving and picked a fight with Sauron out of nowhere. The ring is more like a beacon with a switch.

As for Legolas and Gimli they were chosen to be Frodo's company; neither also understand the Ring as much as Gandalf and Elrond do. It could call out to them and offer a resurgence of their peoples, but both Legolas and Gimli are rather young and thus don't really have much to recall outside of songs and granddad-tales. If it was Dain Ironfoot and Thranduil going on this trip the temptation for Khazad-dum (or rather, to foolishly challenge Durin's Bane) or Doriath might awaken and we'd be in trouble. It helps that Legolas is practically a wood-elf and thinks simple much of the time for an Elf. Galadriel is more complex thinking than him and shows us how hard it was to overcome the Ring temptation and become 'diminished'.

The Ring also knows Frodo is going to Mordor, so for the most part it never tries to escape ala Gollum and Bilbo since Sauron awaits right at home. Legolas and Gimli would have taken it northwards and away.


CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 14 2010, 6:20pm

Post #81 of 98 (151 views)
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Magic vs. mechanical devices [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The "magic" of the Ring is shown throughout the story as slippery, ambiguous, difficult to separate from "normal" thought processes - and this is as true for Frodo as for anyone else.


I think you brought us back to reality on this one, FFA--thanks! Some discussion has revolved around "why didn't the Ring always do the same thing to everyone?", assuming that it acts consistently and predictably. This is my own prejudice when reading fantasy: why doesn't magic always work the same way that a mechanical device does? We are creatures of our own age just as we say that about people in other eras, and in this age of mobile phones, iPods, etc, we expect these "wondrous" devices to be reliable and consistent. If an iPod works for me, it should work for you too.

The Ring is magical. It doesn't obey any laws we try to assign to it. It's outside the laws of science. There's no reason why it should corrupt everyone who comes near it; hence there's no reason why it HAD to tempt the other hobbits, Gimli, and Legolas. Magical things are inherently unpredictable and "slippery," as you say. It's a mysterious element in the story, not a predictable one. The only thing we're sure of is that it's evil; we can't be certain how, when, or if it will enact its evil.


Curious
Half-elven


Jul 14 2010, 6:25pm

Post #82 of 98 (150 views)
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Why do you think Legolas and Gimli [In reply to] Can't Post

were less powerful, or less used to power, than Boromir? I'm not sure I buy that.

I do find it fascinating that all these years I read the book with a completely different perspective from, apparently, everyone else. I have never thought that Smeagol (before he held it), Gandalf, Strider, Elrond, Galadriel, Boromir, or Faramir were influenced by the Ring. When the movie portrayed Gandalf as reluctant to touch the Ring, or Galadriel as truly recovering her senses after going nuclear, that was very different from my interpretation. Yet what I'm reading in this thread leads me to believe that I am, perhaps, the only one who thought that the Ring had nothing to do with the temptation of the nonringbearers, except as an object of desire. Fair enough.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 14 2010, 6:31pm

Post #83 of 98 (136 views)
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The Rise of the PCs: [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone who owns a Personal Computer knows that sufficiently complex machines are capable of doing evil.Evil

Kangi Ska

Make the Hobbit Happen!

Photobucket


Curious
Half-elven


Jul 14 2010, 6:37pm

Post #84 of 98 (196 views)
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I think I give up. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've enjoyed the thread a great deal, but I think squire is right, we are beginning to go in circles. I've made my position clear to myself and others as best I can. I continue to think it fits all the evidence, but it seems clear that I am in the minority -- perhaps a minority of one.

I do think we can agree, though, that, as you say, at least the quality of the tempation was different for the ringbearers. The Ring seems to have had a much greater effect on those who wore it than those who were close to it, and probably would have had a much greater effect on those who claimed it than on those who merely wore it.

Maybe the effect on those who were near it was greater than zero, despite the ability of the hobbits and Gimli and Legolas to shrug it off. Or perhaps the Ring could select its victims, and chose Boromir because he was the most vulnerable. I still think it is equally plausible that the Ring did not affect people who were not ringbearers, but I'm not sure anyone else agrees with me about that. So be it. Maybe I'm just stubborn.

You know, now that I think of it, perhaps the greatest evidence that the Ring can affect those who don't bear it comes Unfinished Tales and the passage through Moria in LotR. In Unfinished Tales Tolkien tells of Isildur's last stand, and writes that orcs who really had no business knowing of the presence of the Ring turned into berserkers while fighting Isildur. Similarly, in Moria we have the Watcher in the Water and the berserker orc targeting Frodo as if they knew he had the Ring. It's quite possible that the Ring influenced the behavior of these monsters, and that may be evidence that it also influenced the behavior of non-monsters like Boromir. Indeed, perhaps the Ring influenced the behavior of Pippin when he dropped the stone into the well in Moria! Hmm, I like that theory!


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 15 2010, 2:30am

Post #85 of 98 (168 views)
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Sam was not wearing the Ring [In reply to] Can't Post

when he had his vision:


Quote
His thought turned to the Ring, but there was no comfort there, only dread and danger. No sooner had he come in sight of Mount Doom, burning far away, than he was aware of a change in his burden. As it drew near the great furnaces where, in the deeps of time, it had been shaped and forged, the Ring's power grew, and it became more fell, untameable save by some mighty will. As Sam stood there, even though the Ring was not on him but hanging by its chain about his neck, he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself, a vast and ominous threat halted upon the walls of Mordor. He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age...He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be.

In that hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command.

'And anyway all these notions are only a trick,' he said to himself. 'He'd spot me and cow me, before I could so much as shout out.'


The Ring, unworn, is tempting Sam to claim it "with the best of intentions" - in vain. It cannot defeat the "mighty will" of this simple Hobbit.

And speaking of Sam, let me add his observations about Boromir into the mix: "Now I watched Boromir and listened to him, from Rivendell all down the road...and it's my opinion that in Lórien he first saw clearly what I guessed sooner: what he wanted. From the moment he first saw it he wanted the Enemy's Ring!"

So: did Boromir's attitude make him want the Ring - or was the Ring working on him, tempting him with its prowess as a weapon? Clear as mud, isn't it?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




Curious
Half-elven


Jul 15 2010, 3:25am

Post #86 of 98 (171 views)
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Okay, but Sam was [In reply to] Can't Post

bearing the Ring at the time.


Quote
And speaking of Sam, let me add his observations about Boromir into the mix: "Now I watched Boromir and listened to him, from Rivendell all down the road...and it's my opinion that in Lórien he first saw clearly what I guessed sooner: what he wanted. From the moment he first saw it he wanted the Enemy's Ring!"

So: did Boromir's attitude make him want the Ring - or was the Ring working on him, tempting him with its prowess as a weapon? Clear as mud, isn't it?


Precisely my point. It's just not clear how much the Ring has to do with it when a ringbearer is not involved.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 15 2010, 9:23am

Post #87 of 98 (125 views)
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Clear as... [In reply to] Can't Post

... human thought?


Quote
So: did Boromir's attitude make him want the Ring - or was the Ring working on him, tempting him with its prowess as a weapon? Clear as mud, isn't it?


I think it helps to consider the Ring as a "magical" metaphor for ordinary, human temptation - temptation made concrete, you might say.

So everything that happens to people in terms of the Ring reflects the different ways people might react to temptation. If you take a mundane example, you could imagine the Ring as, say, a donut (mmm...). People who aren't hungry won't be tempted at all (Gimli and Legolas apparently have no need for power), and may have the added inhibition of knowing that the donut belongs to someone they love (Merry, Pippin, Sam). But someone who's hungry (like Boromir) will feel his mouth watering immediately. He knows he shouldn't take someone else's donut, but the longer he has to look at it, the more his hunger grows. Anybody who's ever been on a diet knows how that feels...Tongue

That's how temptation works on a trivial scale, and fundamentally, serious temptations follow the same psychology. If you're sensible, you will make sure the tempting object is put away out of your sight. That's how I see Faramir's reaction - his mouth waters instantly because he too is hungry (both to finish off his brother's job and to do his father's will), but he's already put himself "on a diet" by swearing that he won't take whatever it is that Frodo has, and he's wise enough to get that donut out of his sight before it starts to play on his mind: "there are some perils from which a man must flee."

For me, the magic of Middle-earth is natural, and follows the nature of the world as we know it. A magical object like the Ring doesn't contradict nature, it just magnifies and illuminates it by turning thoughts and beliefs into concrete metaphors. The real magic isn't mechanical and external, like Gandalf's fireworks, but deeply internal - "right down deep where [you] can't lay your hands on it" as Sam puts it. And yet, as Frodo replies, "‘you can see and feel it everywhere" - because it's deep inside us, reflecting our most human - and most complex and "clear as mud" - thoughts and emotions.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 15 2010, 10:36am

Post #88 of 98 (157 views)
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I love your Ring/donut comparison! [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh

Thus, it's like Sam says: a man brings his peril with him!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 15 2010, 11:34am

Post #89 of 98 (135 views)
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Bearing vs. wearing [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose one could say that at this point, within sight of Orodruin, "wearing" and "bearing" the Ring become nearly the same thing, due to the increased "activity" of the Ring near its source.

Which leads me to wonder: had Sam been bearing the Ring when they came near the blasted lands north of the Morannon, would his "I feel sick" have led to grandeur illusions then, a fantasy that he could have healed that land?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 15 2010, 12:33pm

Post #90 of 98 (129 views)
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Wearing is different anyway [In reply to] Can't Post

don't you think?

I don't recall anyone having delusions once they've given in to temptation and put the Ring on. Instead they feel "uniquely visible" and vulnerable.

Kind of the way you feel when you give in and take a bite of that forbidden donut...

(I feel sick, indeed!)

Cool

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Curious
Half-elven


Jul 15 2010, 1:50pm

Post #91 of 98 (106 views)
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Good point.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


xy
Rohan

Jul 15 2010, 3:09pm

Post #92 of 98 (137 views)
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wait... [In reply to] Can't Post

I always thought Ring tempting (pretty much) everyone is it's influence...

- Smeagol murders his best friend merely seconds upon viewing the Ring. I'm not convinced he was always a murderer.

- Saruman only studied the lore on the Ring(s) of Power and he fell under the influence (although I'd also argue using the Pallantir helped a lot). Surely he wasn't evil from day one in Middle Earth...

- Boromir hears stories of Isildur's Bane, and is quite quickly tempted as well. Of course his intentions are only do defend his home town, but we all know it would not stop there...and Denethor wants to hide it in in Minas Tirith, only to be used in dire need. I'm not convinced Boromir set out to Rivendell already planning to take over the Ring (although it's certainly plausible Denethor sent him with that in mind). He began plotting once he saw the Ring "live" sort of speak.


Curious
Half-elven


Jul 15 2010, 4:02pm

Post #93 of 98 (111 views)
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Apparently everyone agrees with you. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been fighting a losing battle on this one, and I've finally given up. But at the very least, the Ring seems to be selective about who it influences. Gimli and Legolas and Merry and Pippin are apparently unaffected, for example. I also think that the Ring has a much greater influence on ringbearers than anyone else. And as for Saruman and Denethor, I find it more persuasive to assume that they were directly influenced by Sauron through the palantiri, since they never came near the Ring.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 15 2010, 4:13pm

Post #94 of 98 (116 views)
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Do you mean, [In reply to] Can't Post

you can't have your donut and eat it too?

Wink


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




Curious
Half-elven


Jul 15 2010, 5:56pm

Post #95 of 98 (111 views)
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mmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

... donuts!


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 20 2010, 1:03pm

Post #96 of 98 (108 views)
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Elrond's weakness is revealed [In reply to] Can't Post

in his admission of fear, perhaps: "I fear to take the Ring to hide it...."

That is, he knows he would be tempted if he allowed himself access to the Ring. It's true that we don't see him actually confronted with it, and it would nicely complete the set if we had, but he's following the wisdom that Faramir describes later: "I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee."

Now I come to think about it, this is a possible solution to a point that Bilbo raises in conversation with Frodo - why could the Ring not have been brought to Rivendell much sooner, before things got so dangerous: "I could have brought the thing here myself long ago without so much trouble. I have thought several times of going back to Hobbiton for it; but I am getting old, and they would not let me: Gandalf and Elrond, I mean."

Gandalf and Elrond were wise enough, it seems, to know that it had to stay out of their reach.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



CuriousG
Valinor


Jul 20 2010, 1:23pm

Post #97 of 98 (97 views)
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Excellent point [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, FFH. I've wondered the same thing myself: if Gandalf had a smidgeon of a doubt about the true nature of the Ring, why leave it in Bag End? Admittedly, the Shire was unknown and it wasn't a likely place for anyone to come plundering to steal it, but it would have been safer in Rivendell. Except, as you point out, that it would have used its corrupting power there.

Denethor rationally (despite his otherwise irrational persona) said he wouldn't use but would keep it locked up in Minas Tirith. Gandalf retorted that the Ring would eat at his mind until he did retrieve it from his deepest treasury and claim it as his own. It seems it would have done the same thing in Rivendell. Under Frodo's care, the Ring extended his life, but it didn't enslave him into putting the Ring on and declaring himself the new Lord of the Rings. So it was safer to leave it in Hobbiton, it turns out.


squire
Valinor


Jul 20 2010, 4:19pm

Post #98 of 98 (409 views)
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Completing the set [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice phrase!

Yes, we might conclude that Elrond is confessing his own confrontation with the Ring in that one statement. Of course, he does let it come to Rivendell, and he hosts it for months while the "scouts" are out and about that fall. Likewise, Galadriel allows the Ring (against her better judgment, it seems) into Lothlorien, and Gandalf and Aragorn, having foresworn the Ring, travel with it for weeks or months. I think these are interesting examples of the power of words or oaths in the story: the Wise and Powerful are largely safe against the Ring's immediate proximity if they have said to themselves and others that they will not take it. Faramir (weaker and less sure of himself) is true to his word too, but a bit more hasty, pushing Frodo out the door the next morning.

I don't see Bilbo's words as implying that Gandalf and Elrond were nervous about the Ring coming to Rivendell, because it would then tempt them. The situation would have been the same as it ended up: Rivendell could only have been a rest stop before sending the Ring to the Fire. Rather, the remark seems to me to refer to the idea (supported elsewhere in the text) that the Ring has passed from Bilbo, and cannot be taken back by him since he is so close to being enslaved by it.

It does beg the question of when Elrond first discovered from Gandalf that Bilbo's ring was a Great Ring of Power, if not the actual One Ring. In Gandalf's other narratives, he implies that the question of the hobbit's ring was a puzzle that only he and Aragorn were working on, leaving Saruman out of the loop - no mention of wise old Elrond at all. As I've asked before regarding Gandalf's wisdom, I'll ask again about Elrond's: why the delay? why no haste? why wait for decades when Sauron was weak, when no harm could have come from assuming the worst and acting quickly?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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