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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
John Noble's thoughts on Denethor
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FarFromHome
Valinor


May 7 2010, 3:50am

Post #26 of 48 (221 views)
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It's the difference... [In reply to] Can't Post

... between showing and telling, as I put it in my previous post.


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...Denethor is spoken of as great from the beginning, up to Gandalf's words to Pippin before meeting him!.... the last words regarding him (Gandalf's) mention his greatness in not succumbing to the palantir ...



I consider all that to be mere telling - and in the telling, I agree, Denethor is reported to be very great.

But we are only shown Denethor through the eyes of Pippin, and he sees many hints of weakness in his complex portrayal of the character - great force of will, for sure, and a character that inspires fear and respect. But we also see Denethor using his reputation for wisdom to manipulate others - overriding the advice of all his generals, for example, to make sure that Faramir ends up on the front line. And even using his grief for Boromir "as a cloak" to further his political ends -to the point where I question whether his grief for Boromir was primarily for the son, and not mostly for the heir (and the "mighty gift" he thought he was bringing).

I see the hidden mail and sword as a sign that Denethor is cultivating his own belief in his greatness and courage, while we know from Gandalf's reaction to Denethor's decisions that the only courage that matters is to go out and put your own safety on the line, no matter how great and indispensable you may think you are. The hidden mail, then, is a sign of a hollow man - one who is "keeping up appearances" even to himself.


In Reply To
Believe me, a lesser man (even an Imrahil or an Eomer) would have been way less successful in witholding crucial information from Sauron...



Possibly, but I view this as irrelevant to the question of the portrayal of Denethor - the man we are allowed to see for ourselves through the eyes of Pippin. Pippin is an excellent witness, and even sees "...by a sense other than sight ... that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled." Which reminds me that, just as Denethor reminds Pippin of Aragorn, so Faramir reminds Sam of Gandalf: "But I can say this: you have an air too, sir, that reminds me of, of – well, Gandalf, of wizards." The hobbits, with their naive insight, see what greater folk either do not see or will not say. Faramir is the one who resembles Gandalf - his father, though he looks greater, is the lesser man.


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I am sure that Denethor's story in truly the fall of the a great man, similar to (but more powerful than) those tremendous personalities, Michael_Henchard and Gunhild_Borkman (Draupne noddes sagely).



I'm not familiar with the Ibsen play you refer to, but The Mayor of Casterbridge is one of my favourite Hardy novels, and really, I just can't agree that Denethor belongs in this company at all, let alone that he's more powerful than Hardy's character - or than, for example, the character of Bulstrode in George Eliot's Middlemarch, who suffers a similar fall. The problem with Denethor, for me, is that we are only told of his greatness. Tolkien never provides a portrait of that side of the man. He does the same for Saruman, and as you say, for Boromir. All these characters have a reputation (retroactive in Boromir's case) other than what we see for ourselves. Henchard, by comparison, is much more complex - we see his personality in all its facets, in a way that we simply never could with Denethor. It's so different that I find it hard to even make the comparison. I'm not criticizing Tolkien for this, because I don't think he ever had any intention of making such a realistic portrait, and indeed if he had tried he'd have totally derailed his fantasy.


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....whatever you may think of Tom Shippey's suggestion that he saw Frodo being captured - it is still clear that the Enemy learned nothing from him regarding Frodo) as opposed to Saruman.



Well, despite the fact that I said above that Denethor's strength regarding the palantir is irrelevant to the portrait of the man that we see for ourselves, I still can't resist...

First, thanks to Tom Shippey for working out the timeline, I now feel strengthened in my own personal UUT that Denethor is referring to Sam when he talks about the Ring "in the hands of a witless fool". That wording just sounds too much like one of Tolkien's little ironic hints!

Whether or not Denethor saw something that he managed to hide from Sauron, or whether Sauron only let him see what he wanted him to (as Gandalf suggests), I don't think there's any way of knowing. Tolkien deliberately left all this ambiguous, as he so often does, and allows us to contruct our own idea of how we want to imagine things to be. In any case, my argument doesn't really centre on Denethor's strength of will - even if his will is stronger than Saruman's (and why not? - it's stronger than Gandalf's) what does it avail him if he has no compassion and no true courage? As we see from his death, Denethor's only true sympathy is for himself.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



(This post was edited by FarFromHome on May 7 2010, 3:54am)


sador
Half-elven


May 7 2010, 5:16am

Post #27 of 48 (205 views)
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A nice UUT! [In reply to] Can't Post

But Denethor spoke of sending the Ring to Mordor in the hands of a witless halfling when he first learned the news from Faramir - long before he looked towards Cirith Ungol in the palantir.


And just to point out - in the earlier drafts, Tolkien had Denethor advocating restraint, and Faramir (and Gandalf, IIRC) the one who wanted to try and hold Osgiliath and the Pelennor (remember Gandalf's contemptuous words about this policy in The Last Debate; this is also the context of Denethor's words, 'spending my own sons')?
Tolkien changed their places as an afterthought, as it would itensify Denethor's tragedy, while not bothering to edit Gandalf's later words.
At the very least, I think this shows that Tolkien considered both policies to be of comparable validity, and did not consider defending the Pelennor a foolish expediency.

But the main point of my post was the opposite histories of our relating to Denethor and Boromir, which was inspired by your original post. That you! Smile

A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.

"...Still, undespairing, do we sometimes slowly file
Discursive threads regardless of our doom..."
- squire.



FarFromHome
Valinor


May 7 2010, 6:37am

Post #28 of 48 (375 views)
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Darn! [In reply to] Can't Post


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But Denethor spoke of sending the Ring to Mordor in the hands of a witless halfling when he first learned the news from Faramir - long before he looked towards Cirith Ungol in the palantir.



You're right! I think I was misled by the BBC radio dramatization, which is so faithful to the text that you tend not to notice the small things they do move around - and this quote (which they change to "witless fool" instead of "witless halfling") is one of the changes...

Blush

Thanks for the information about the earlier drafts. It's interesting to see how Tolkien's ideas evolve. I can see the point of having Denethor preferring restraint regarding Osgiliath, in that it fits in with his general attitude of staying in his tower rather than taking the fight to the enemy. The fact that Tolkien leaves in Gandalf's words about Denethor's usual "sitting on sand-castles" policy makes it all the clearer that Denethor's decision about Osgiliath was made for some other reason than military judgement.

"Spending even my sons" takes on an added dimension of meaning too, I think, in the final version. Denethor contrasts the "spending" of his sons with his own decision to sit in his tower, implying that he himself is too valuable to "spend". So he chooses, as it were, to "throw good money after bad" - "spending" the second son in, at best, a dangerous gamble, and at worst, an act of deliberate retribution.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



(This post was edited by FarFromHome on May 7 2010, 6:40am)


squire
Valinor


May 7 2010, 9:28am

Post #29 of 48 (214 views)
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I never imagined [In reply to] Can't Post

before reading your last few posts, that Denethor was "punishing" Faramir for giving away the Ring by sending him forward to lead the defensive battles. My reading has always been that his sons were his two captains, and now he has only one; thus the one must do the work of two. He scorns Faramir's faith in Gandalf's policy, and spurs Faramir by withholding his love and approval, but that is not the same as deliberately sending him into danger - in subconscious hope of a wound or death - as a punishment or revenge for failure. Even had there been no incident of the Ring, wouldn't Denethor still insist that Faramir command the field forces of the City, the job for which he is very obviously the most qualified?

It was the movie that suggested that Denethor, as an obviously evil man, deliberately sent Faramir off to be killed in a hopeless charge. Maybe I just see Denethor, even for all his flaws, as nobler than that. Your remarks about Pippin's witness to Denethor's fall are well taken, but I also think there are plenty of clues in the writing that show us, rather than tell us, the kind of Elessar-like leader and man Denethor had been for Gondor for decades before the final battle. Denethor as a character doesn't work if the equation is too simple: worldly wise but amoral man fails to "get it" and goes mad and dies as a result. Denethor "gets it" but is too conflicted by his past and his understanding of his worldly duty to act on "it" with conviction; and is driven mad as a result. He knows the Ring would corrupt him, but he also can't see any other solution that doesn't involve blatant surrender to Sauron. As Denethor would say, and does say to Gandalf, things look different to the actual ruler of an empire than to an angelic wizard or an exiled ranger.

It was Imrahil who made the sand-castles remark, after Denethor's death; and Gandalf concurs with the image.



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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 7 2010, 2:56pm

Post #30 of 48 (183 views)
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It's Imrahil who refers to "sand-castles". [In reply to] Can't Post

When Gandalf tells him that Denethor was correct, that Gondor has no hope of defeating Mordor in battle.

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sador
Half-elven


May 7 2010, 3:18pm

Post #31 of 48 (192 views)
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Well, Gandalf refers to Denethor [In reply to] Can't Post

And I think his tone is contemptuous, as when he commends him for his prudence and 'wisdom' (see your discussion with Curious of The White Rider).

A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.

"...Still, undespairing, do we sometimes slowly file
Discursive threads regardless of our doom..."
- squire.



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 7 2010, 4:54pm

Post #32 of 48 (192 views)
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Gandalf calls himself a fool, too. [In reply to] Can't Post

I take him to be sincere when he tells Pippin, "There never was much hope ... Just a fool's hope, as I have been told", even if he uses the perjorative term only because Denethor did so. Absent the possibility of destroying the Ring, there is no hope of victory, and Denethor's policies have been sound. And unlike FFH, I think Tolkien both tells of and shows Denethor behaving sensibly, including having Pippin observe the results of his prudent leadership: Pippin sees the Red Arrow pass and beacons lit, both requesting aid from Rohan; he sees the troops from Gondor's southern districts arrive at Denethor's summoning; and he sees the end of a very orderly evacuation of civilians from the city, where the enemy will first attack.

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xy
Rohan

May 7 2010, 6:17pm

Post #33 of 48 (233 views)
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interesting quotes [In reply to] Can't Post

But the movie falls very short of reaching the full potential of the character. While Gandalf clearly has the duality down with Saruman, and Theoden with Denethor, Aragorn only fits with Boromir.

I think that while Denethor may have favoured Boromir in the open, I think he cares more for Faramir than he lets on (stopping him from going on a dangerous journey to Rivendell, breaking down finally when Faramir - and not Boromir - "died"). I can't help but wonder what he saw in that last battle of wills with Sauron the last time he looked into the Palantir...

While Gandalf clearly has the duality down with Saruman, and Theoden with Denethor, Aragorn only fits with Boromir.


(This post was edited by xy on May 7 2010, 6:20pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


May 7 2010, 8:58pm

Post #34 of 48 (176 views)
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I n't think so... [In reply to] Can't Post

"I take him to be sincere when he tells Pippin, 'here never was much hope ... Just a fool's hope, as I have been told'," I think Gandalf was being mildly sardonic and not necessarily claiming the title Fool. I think Denethor's actions have an appearance of prudence (The Wise Fool) but are not what is actually needed for a good outcome.




Kangi Ska

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


May 7 2010, 9:03pm

Post #35 of 48 (154 views)
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Aragorn is also the anti-Sauron.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska

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At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.


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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


May 7 2010, 9:12pm

Post #36 of 48 (151 views)
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NARF - Not a Real Fool? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


May 7 2010, 9:23pm

Post #37 of 48 (136 views)
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He only got one point on him's hat & no bells...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska

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FarFromHome
Valinor


May 8 2010, 1:32am

Post #38 of 48 (151 views)
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I was reading Denethor that way... [In reply to] Can't Post

... when Peter Jackson was still in short pants (oh wait, he's still in short pants....) Tongue


Quote
....Denethor was "punishing" Faramir for giving away the Ring by sending him forward to lead the defensive battles.



It's subtle, but Denethor is a subtle man. And that's what I read in the text - Denethor's "much must be risked in war" against the considered opinion of the bravest men in his army, and the psychological blackmail implied in "is there a captain here who still has the courage to do his lord's will?"


Quote
It was the movie that suggested that Denethor, as an obviously evil man, deliberately sent Faramir off to be killed in a hopeless charge.



Even movie-Denethor is more subtle than that. He's not "obviously evil", but grieving and sinking into a pit of self-pity and inaction. The movie does make it much clearer that the charge is hopeless - book-Denethor has chosen a mission that can't be quite so easily defined as a suicide one. I doubt either version of Denethor has actually admitted to himself that he's sending his son to his death - what he is doing is punishing him for his failure of filial duty - Denethor is a controlling, punitive father who, as I read it, feels that he has the right to treat Faramir in this superficially courteous way while actually wounding him to the heart.


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Denethor as a character doesn't work if the equation is too simple: worldly wise but amoral man fails to "get it" and goes mad and dies as a result.



I couldn't agree more. That's so far from what I said in my previous post that I just can't understand where you got it from. Denethor isn't amoral - he's painfully, self-righteously dutiful and aware of his position. What he can't stand is that he's failing in his duty, and losing his position - that line of faithful stewards of which he now believes he will be the last.

If by "worldly wise" you mean sensible, careful, prudent - then yes, I agree with that. It's one of his great failings - his instinct is to protect what he has, rather than risk himself or his city for a greater good. It's symbolized by his decision to stay in his tower, wearing his armour to bolster his own self-image, rather than going out to face the enemy.


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He knows the Ring would corrupt him, but he also can't see any other solution that doesn't involve blatant surrender to Sauron.



He seems to be in denial to me - why else would he talk about leaving the Ring "hidden dark and deep", something that, as Gandalf tells him, he could never do?

And of course there is another solution that doesn't involve surrender - it's the solution that Gandalf has already led Theoden to adopt. You go out with all colours flying, laying down your own life for the sake of others.


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As Denethor would say, and does say to Gandalf, things look different to the actual ruler of an empire than to an angelic wizard or an exiled ranger.



Indeed. But a lesser ruler than himself has found the selfless courage that Denethor himself never will.


Quote

It was Imrahil who made the sand-castles remark, after Denethor's death; and Gandalf concurs with the image.



Yes, I know. Sorry if my phrasing was misleading. It's Imrahil who comes up with the deprecating phrase, but it's Gandalf who ascribes the policy to Denethor.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


May 8 2010, 1:41am

Post #39 of 48 (151 views)
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I agree with half of your statement [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's Imrahil who refers to "sand-castles". When Gandalf tells him that Denethor was correct, that Gondor has no hope of defeating Mordor in battle.



As I mentioned to squire, I was aware that it's Imrahil who comes up with the colourful phrase - I'm sorry I was unclear, but I was actually focusing on Gandalf's reply. And his reply certainly doesn't say that Denethor was correct - quite the opposite:

'Then you would have us retreat to Minas Tirith, or Dol Amroth, or to Dunharrow, and there sit like children on sand-castles when the tide is flowing?' said Imrahil.

'That would be no new counsel,' said Gandalf. 'Have you not done this and little more in all the days of Denethor? But no! I said this would be prudent. I do not counsel prudence.'

If you think that Gandalf is praising Denethor's "prudence", then I can well understand that your view of Denethor would be different from mine. Gandalf is surely saying that what Denethor did in "all his days" was equivalent to sitting on sand-castles. And that "prudence" is not in fact a virtue for which he has much admiration.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


May 8 2010, 1:53am

Post #40 of 48 (150 views)
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I never said Denethor wasn't sensible. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And unlike FFH, I think Tolkien both tells of and shows Denethor behaving sensibly, including having Pippin observe the results of his prudent leadership...



I just said we never see him being great - or noble, or courageous. He's a good manager, but he's not a good leader. He has prudence in spades, but prudence is not what you need at a time like this - as Gandalf makes clear in the passage from The Last Debate that I quoted earlier.

I've never argued that Denethor is raving mad or out of control - quite the opposite, he's a cold, controlling man. Prudence is indeed his greatest virtue. Instead of playing to win, he plays not to lose - but as any soccer fan will tell you, that's always a doomed strategy. And once he does find that he's losing everything, the dam of his control breaks and he throws away the rest in a fit of rage against the unfairness of it all.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


May 8 2010, 2:19am

Post #41 of 48 (231 views)
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I think there is a Denethor/Aragorn contrast in the movies [In reply to] Can't Post

I see it in "the rule of Gondor is mine" versus "I do not want that power."

Aragorn is the better ruler because he doesn't want the role - a traditional Catholic idea summed up in the Latin phrase "nolo episcopari", or "I do not wish to be bishop", the attitude an incoming bishop should have if he is wise. Aragorn meets setback after setback and gives up everything - even the hope of ever seeing the woman he loves again - for the sake of fulfilling the duty he has been given. Denethor clings onto power and in the end, instead of sacrificing himself for others, tries to drag others down with him.


In Reply To
While Gandalf clearly has the duality down with Saruman, and Theoden with Denethor, Aragorn only fits with Boromir.



In a dramatic medium such as film, it's obviously much easier to make clear oppositions when the characters are onscreen together. And Aragorn and Denethor never meet. Still, even in the book, Faramir is a kind of "stand-in" to represent Aragorn's attitude in dealings with Denethor, and I think this works in the movie too.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 8 2010, 2:51am

Post #42 of 48 (149 views)
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What else should Denethor have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the Ring had remained lost, Gondor would have been crushed. Gandalf says so: they cannot defeat Sauron by force. For most of the "days of Denethor", all Gondor can do is stall the inevitable. Denethor does this. (He might have taken a more aggressive approach toward Mordor, like Aragorn-as-Thorondil, but in the long term it would make no difference, barring the destruction of the Ring, which would seem to be as lost as the Silmarils.) Only in his last week, when Denethor learns that the Ring has been found and might be destroyed, does he make the wrong strategic choices.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 8 2010, 3:09am

Post #43 of 48 (155 views)
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It's not a suicide mission in the books. [In reply to] Can't Post

Even Gandalf doesn't think so, since he advises Faramir not to "throw your live away rashly or in bitterness", which means that Faramir has that choice, on the mission to which he has been assigned. Many of the men --an "ordered mass", though Tolkien does not say how many-- return alive from the mission, and Faramir himself is only injured at the last moment, within sight (and in poor light) of the city walls.

And Denethor's plan arguably works: Faramir's troops stall Mordor's advance by an entire day, so that Théoden and Aragorn have time to arrive and lift the siege.

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FarFromHome
Valinor


May 8 2010, 3:27am

Post #44 of 48 (137 views)
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Do you want the Rational or the Romantic answer? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What else should Denethor have done? ... For most of the "days of Denethor", all Gondor can do is stall the inevitable. Denethor does this.



Rationalism - Enlightenment, Reason - are Denethor's touchstones.

But LotR is Romantic - it's based on the legends of the North, where courage and defiance beyond hope are fundamental.

So it's true that logically, Denethor was right. The battle could not be won by "force of arms", as Gandalf says. But in Middle-earth, you have to think outside the box, which managerial, bean-counting Denethor is incapable of doing. In a Romantic worldview, it's not the number of troops you have but the courage in your heart that makes the difference. If Denethor had risked everything he had to face up to the enemy, instead of playing a cautious, defensive game, he might have been a hero. As Sam says, every potential hero has "lots of chances of turning back", or playing it safe, as Denethor does. But if you do, you'll be forgotten - or die in ignominy, in Denethor's case. Not all heroes have happy or successful lives, a point Sam also makes. But in story terms, it's heroes that matter - better to go out in a way that's "worth a song", as Theoden does (and as the Ents do), than to live a cautious, creeping life of slow defeat.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


May 8 2010, 3:41am

Post #45 of 48 (254 views)
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Faramir argues strongly against the mission [In reply to] Can't Post

"Today we may make the Enemy pay ten times our loss at the passage and yet rue the exchange. For he can afford to lose a host better than we to lose a company. And the retreat of those that we put out far afield will be perilous, if he wins across in force."

And the Prince adds other objections.

I agree that the mission is not literally a suicide one, just an extremely perilous one. As I argued earlier, Denethor wants to punish Faramir by testing him harshly and risking his life, not by sending him to certain death. I disagree that Gandalf's words show that he doesn't think Faramir is likely to die - he is just encouraging Faramir to concentrate his mind on the mission and try to stay alive, rather than feeling too hurt and defeated to put up a good fight.

Denethor's plan does indeed "arguably" work - thanks to Faramir's unparalleled ability and generosity as a leader of men, and Gandalf's help on the field. It's not uncommon that a misguided plan results in an unforeseen and unforeseeable advantage. Denethor's own stated motivation was his usual one - to defend his own territory ("I will not yield the River and the Pelennor unfought"), not to help his allies. And if he really hoped that Faramir would be successful, he's showing an astonishing lack of leadership skills in allowing his son to leave with those hurtful, dismissive words ringing in his ears.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



xy
Rohan

May 8 2010, 2:59pm

Post #46 of 48 (141 views)
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personally I don't see it [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I see it in "the rule of Gondor is mine" versus "I do not want that power."

Aragorn is the better ruler because he doesn't want the role - a traditional Catholic idea summed up in the Latin phrase "nolo episcopari", or "I do not wish to be bishop", the attitude an incoming bishop should have if he is wise. Aragorn meets setback after setback and gives up everything - even the hope of ever seeing the woman he loves again - for the sake of fulfilling the duty he has been given. Denethor clings onto power and in the end, instead of sacrificing himself for others, tries to drag others down with him.


In Reply To
While Gandalf clearly has the duality down with Saruman, and Theoden with Denethor, Aragorn only fits with Boromir.



In a dramatic medium such as film, it's obviously much easier to make clear oppositions when the characters are onscreen together. And Aragorn and Denethor never meet. Still, even in the book, Faramir is a kind of "stand-in" to represent Aragorn's attitude in dealings with Denethor, and I think this works in the movie too.


I see Theoden/Denethor common points - both losing a son, both having tragic events in their lands, and both facing Sauron. And one rises to the occasion while the other is overcome with grief after justifiably believing both of his sons are dead.

On the other hand Boromir and Aragorn are both heirs to the throne and under pressure to be kings one day, and both have a real chance of having - and using - the Ring. While one thinks of defending his home town, the other realises the entire Middle Earth needs to be saved.

I'm not sure Aragorn doesn't want to be a ruler at all; he's just waiting for the right time (ie after defeating Sauron). To me I think Faramir is meant to be more as anti-Boromir than Aragorn's stand-in.

Was Denethor really "punishing" Faramir ? I'm not convinced. "Is there a captain that still obeys ?" Indeed. In Boromir's absence, he is the most obvious choice.


Marionette
Rohan


May 8 2010, 7:03pm

Post #47 of 48 (160 views)
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He would have been great... [In reply to] Can't Post

Denethor is one of the major complains against Peter Jacko´s LOTR.
But not John Noble, he understand the character, I knew that since the very begining.
He still have some hints about real Denethor there, it was too much on screen to make the character different from book character.
The whole misunderstandings against Denethor, it´s a scrip writter fault.

"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes.
So sad it ends, as it began"



Arwen Skywalker
Lorien

May 9 2010, 8:05pm

Post #48 of 48 (239 views)
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Wow, this thread has really evolved [In reply to] Can't Post

I also agree 100% that Denethor was in denial about the Ring's effect on him. This is also evident in his conversation with Boromir. Let's take a look:

"Ever the Ring will seek to corrupt the hearts of lesser men. But you, you are strong."

Denethor seems to think the Ring will affect everyone else but him and Boromir. Before this, he even said that everyone at Rivendell would be scrambling for it. This scene shows he's living on a different planet, at least on matters concerning the Ring. That fact that he desires the Ring without even being in its physical presence is scary, and yet his ego won't let him see the truth about how he really feels.

I don't think you can really talk about Denethor's punishment of Faramir for releasing Frodo and Sam without this thread.
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