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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
What did Christopher Tolkien think about the films?
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geordie
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2010, 4:06pm

Post #76 of 99 (224 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

- thanks for that, N.E. That's the sort of thing I ought to be able to do; never could get the hang of archives and searching!


squire
Valinor


Apr 25 2010, 4:17pm

Post #77 of 99 (239 views)
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Very interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

The folks at LotR Plaza are very well connected to Tolkien scholarship!

No one has ever published this 31-page manuscript, in which Tolkien comments in depth on the appearance of his characters as he imagined them. Yet Tolkien scholars have known about it for years, and have quoted from it extensively without ever citing its actual existence. I find the coyness about this manuscript, indulged in and approved by all who have seen it, fascinating.

The motive - common enough, I guess, in scholarship about living persons or late persons with immediate survivors and friends - is to avoid giving offense to the living by restricting the publication of what were supposed to be private thoughts or comments. The Plaza group, in the thread you referred us to, had a good debate about the consequences of such partial secrecy: many Tolkien fans have heard only of his approval of Ms. Baynes' art for Farmer Giles and have heard nothing of his subsequent complaints about her art for The Lord of the Rings. Understandably but wrongly they may then regard her poster-illustrations (The Middle-earth Map, and also Bilbo's Last Poem) as "authorized" or perhaps "specially-approved" by Tolkien!

It does make me wonder what the next generation of Tolkien scholarship will reveal, from his letters and other still-unpublished manuscripts, when (if ever) they are finally freed up for study.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Apr 25 2010, 4:46pm

Post #78 of 99 (242 views)
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Oops. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is not Scull and Hammond's J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide, as I mistakenly wrote, but their The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, in which the essay is cited on several occasions.

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Discuss Tolkienís life and works in the Reading Room!
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geordie
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2010, 9:23pm

Post #79 of 99 (208 views)
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Late reply [In reply to] Can't Post

- yes, those are the windows to Bag End. As a matter of fact, Ted is closely following Tolkien's own depiction of bag End, as seen in his colour frontispiece to 'The Hobbit'. It's been used in most UK editions of the book since 1937!


(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 25 2010, 9:24pm)


geordie
Tol Eressea

Apr 25 2010, 9:39pm

Post #80 of 99 (218 views)
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Yup! [In reply to] Can't Post

Squire wrote: "The folks at LotR Plaza are very well connected to Tolkien scholarship! "

Some of us are actual scholars! Well, not me: I'm no scholar, but I know several people who are! I've also had the good fortune to be able to attend various talks and papers over the years, and have met several of the top flight folk - Shippey, Flieger and the like. They're really nice folk to talk to. Shippey's a hoot! I recall during one panel discussion, Dr Bruce Mitchell told the audience that Tolkien had proposed removing Shakespeare from the Oxford English curriculum. (Well, it's more complicated than that, but still..) Shippey roared: 'I agree! Abolish Shakespeare this year! Good, tub-thumping stuff..

Smile





(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 25 2010, 9:40pm)


squire
Valinor


Apr 25 2010, 10:01pm

Post #81 of 99 (201 views)
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Not that close [In reply to] Can't Post

Nasmith has, in his own defense, a brilliant hand for painting landscapes. But the picture in question doesn't really reflect Tolkien's ultimate vision. The primary point of all of Bag End is that the big round green front door faces directly outwards, looking across the Country Round to the Farther Lands beyond. It represents the beginning of the Road that Goes Ever On, and also is a symbol for Bilbo's split personality: half hole-dweller, half wanderer.

Nasmith fudges all of this with his complex side-facing front door and its little accessory patio, etc.

Interestingly, Tolkien originally conceived of a side-facing door, since it obviously provides a straight hall for all the windowed rooms to come off of. But he changed his mind, probably for the reasons given above.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


geordie
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2010, 5:21pm

Post #82 of 99 (217 views)
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Um.. [In reply to] Can't Post

" The primary point of all of Bag End is that the big round green front door faces directly outwards, looking across the Country Round to the Farther Lands beyond. It represents the beginning of the Road that Goes Ever On, and also is a symbol for Bilbo's split personality: half hole-dweller, half wanderer. "

I hadn't heard of the symbolism aspect before. Sorry, I'm unconvinced. Smile Besides - the front door of Bag End does face a little to the right in Tolkien's picture (there's a cutting into the hill to allow for this). It's more pronounced in the black and white illustration in the 1st edition. Furthermore - if you've a copy of Hammond and Scull's 'JRR Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator (if not, why not?) Sly - take a look at picture no. 90; a preliminary sketch of Bag End by Tolkien which Ted's matches almost exactly. Almost. One has to allow an artist a little leeway.

Of course, this is a re-make of a picture by Ted which featured in a calendar around 1990? 92? There was a white picket fence then; I remember a paling was missing. Now there's a stone wall. I asked Ted how come? Can't recall his exact reply; I'll paraphrase by saying that he was revisiting the scene after a period of time, and I suppose new ideas occurred to him. I like Ted's work very much: mrs g. and I have a small original of this - one of Ted's working sketches. One of two of Ted's pictures which grace the walls of geordie towers; along with one or two originals by other Tolkien inspired artists. They're very nice.


(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 26 2010, 5:22pm)


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 26 2010, 7:58pm

Post #83 of 99 (172 views)
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There we have the dichotomy... [In reply to] Can't Post

The professor did like work that allowed more interpretation, but spoke to Carpenter (at least) with an exacting detail. Further, there is a vast difference between illustration and depiction of the tale. For that reason I mentioned Blok even though it only partially, at best, supports the view. Look at his own drawings (the professor's) and it's much closer than Blok's so there's a difference/contradiction even there.

Again, I feel, at least for myself, that if an author wrote it, that's the way you depict it. If an author left it open, then interpret.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


geordie
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2010, 9:13pm

Post #84 of 99 (180 views)
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Can you tell us what you mean [In reply to] Can't Post

"The professor did like work that allowed more interpretation, but spoke to Carpenter (at least) with an exacting detail"

- can you tell us which meeting between Tolkien and Carpenter you are referring to? I don't recall their discussing art works. Or have I misinterpreted your point?

Smile


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 26 2010, 10:19pm

Post #85 of 99 (151 views)
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I didn't mean the art... [In reply to] Can't Post

I meant knowledge of the details of his work in general with Carpenter. I was trying in my posts to equate exacting detail of the work to exacting detail of depiction. Sorry I didn't do so well! Frown

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


geordie
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2010, 10:28pm

Post #86 of 99 (155 views)
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It's just that [In reply to] Can't Post

- as far as I know, Tolkien didn't actually talk to Carpenter about his life or works. Carpenter certainly didn't have any help towards his biography of Tolkien from the man himself. As far as I can recall, the only contacts they had were some time in the 1960s when Humph visited Sandfield Road, to ask JRR's permission to put on a school play of The Hobbit; then the actual play itself (Tolkien signed copies of TH for the children), and then one or more unsuccessful meetings - involving at least one visit to a pub - to thrash out details of an interview which Humph. wanted to do for BBC Radio Oxford.

I can't recall reading anything of the kind of conversation you describe; not in any detail. It was only after JRR's death, when Carpenter was granted access to Tolkien's papers by his family, that Carpenter was able to get to grips with the details of the man's life and works.


(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 26 2010, 10:30pm)


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 26 2010, 10:46pm

Post #87 of 99 (153 views)
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The conversation was in the introduction, I believe... [In reply to] Can't Post

Though it's been many a year since I read it. Carpenter describes going to Tolkien's study and he started the conversation as if Carpenter knew the works - ALL of them - as well as he did. As I've said it's been many years.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


geordie
Tol Eressea

Apr 26 2010, 10:53pm

Post #88 of 99 (147 views)
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Thanks for that [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that was the one I was referring to - Carpenter's first visit to Tolkien, while he was still quite young. Though sadly Carpenter does not go into any details. Apparently Tolkien had a habit of doing this; talking nineteen to the dozen about his works, and assuming his listener knew as much as he did. His friend and publisher Rayner Unwin said the same thing.

Thanks - seems I got the wrong end of the stick (again).

Smile


(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 26 2010, 10:53pm)


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 27 2010, 4:32pm

Post #89 of 99 (149 views)
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Thanks to Christopher... [In reply to] Can't Post

I MIGHT be able to manage such a conversation NOW! <chuckle>

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Patty
Immortal


Apr 27 2010, 4:33pm

Post #90 of 99 (149 views)
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"Incidentally, I'd love to know CT's opinion on Balrog wings. " [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Silverlode. Me too. I believe I could accept that answer.

Although, I guess at that point we'd be back to the question of when does a work leave the ownership of the writer and become the personal property of the heart and imagination of the reader? I would think that the greatest joy a writer could have would be when his creation becomes the property (in no financial way, but in interpretation only) of someone who loved it.

Permanent address: Into the West


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 27 2010, 4:57pm

Post #91 of 99 (132 views)
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I heard CT likes them Buffalo style.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska

There is no place like the Shire...There is no place like the Shire...There is no place like the Shire...

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.


Man on Fire


Patty
Immortal


Apr 27 2010, 5:02pm

Post #92 of 99 (165 views)
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Me too. But I've gotta watch the ole cholestrol. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Permanent address: Into the West


geordie
Tol Eressea

Apr 27 2010, 5:31pm

Post #93 of 99 (139 views)
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I don't know [In reply to] Can't Post

what CT's idea of balrog's wings might be. never had the opportunity to ask him. On the other hand, me and mrs g. have often met and chatted with Priscilla at Tolkien Society events, and sat in on Q&A sessions, and do you know what? The question never arose.

There always seemed to be something more interesting to talk about!

Smile


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 27 2010, 7:06pm

Post #94 of 99 (130 views)
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Good thing buffalo sauce... [In reply to] Can't Post

helps burn off cholesterol! Seriously. Spicy foods help. My cholesterol med is 15 oz of orange juice per day and 5 oz of white grapefruit juice. I never remember which does which but the net effect is bad cholesterol goes down by 25% and good cholesterol goes up by 5%

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Patty
Immortal


Apr 27 2010, 7:51pm

Post #95 of 99 (150 views)
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Because of my cholestrol medicine.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't have grapefruit juice.

I'd love to quite the medicine and go on the juice. There are few things as good as Ruby Red grapefruit juice, but that's red grapefruit, not white. I am on orange juice every day to replace the potassium lost with my blood pressure medicine.

Permanent address: Into the West



GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 27 2010, 8:53pm

Post #96 of 99 (119 views)
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<nods understanding> [In reply to] Can't Post

My doc wanted to put me on statins and I said, "Whoa! Let me TRY diet and exercise first!" Dropped more than 72 points and got them offa my back 'bout meds. Doesn't work for everyone but I was relieved!

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Patty
Immortal


Apr 27 2010, 8:57pm

Post #97 of 99 (120 views)
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I'm sure you were! [In reply to] Can't Post

I dropped nearly 50 to get off the CPAP but it didn't work. And my cholestrol was still 212. I think I'm going to have to accept that.

Permanent address: Into the West



GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 27 2010, 8:59pm

Post #98 of 99 (152 views)
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{{{{{{{{{{{{{Patty}}}}}}}}}}}}} [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's hopin' for the best for ya then!

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Apr 29 2010, 5:13am

Post #99 of 99 (304 views)
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"fairly but not quite straight into the side of the hill" [In reply to] Can't Post

"The Hall at Bag-End", intended as the concluding picture of The Hobbit, which gives a view looking out from Bilbo's door, likewise indicates that the hallway is not perpendicular to the face of the Hill: it shows the hillside adjacent to the path. There are of course, various minor discrepancies between the various pictures and the texts. However, squire's suggested symbolism is perhaps strengthened by a hole that does not go straight in: thus Bilbo's wandering Took aspect is shown as a bit greater than his homey Baggins aspect.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkienís life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.

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