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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
It's Tolkien Reading Day! Post your ABCs of Tolkien here.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2010, 2:22pm

Post #126 of 149 (653 views)
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Perhaps the place chose them. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska

The Hobbit Deserves More Respect!

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2010, 2:32pm

Post #127 of 149 (751 views)
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A good poet is aware of all levels of meaning in his work. [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe Tolkien was aware of all of the connections. And the answer is all are true. It is also where Aragorn and Arwen sealed the fate of Man & Elf.

Kangi Ska

The Hobbit Deserves More Respect!

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2010, 3:15pm

Post #128 of 149 (632 views)
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My son is Rowan [In reply to] Can't Post

Named for the tree. Inspired by Tolkien, Robert Graves and Boris Pasternak (Dr, Zhivago). All understood the power.

Kangi Ska

The Hobbit Deserves More Respect!

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


GAndyalf
Valinor

Mar 27 2010, 3:56pm

Post #129 of 149 (711 views)
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But he never tells us... [In reply to] Can't Post

Why it is "the heart of Elvendom on earth." To get that answer we have to look, I believe, into our own hearts. Guided, perhaps, by what we know of the man who showed us this glimpse, but what, precisely, is the reason that of all the wide splendour and magic of Middle-earth that this place is the heart of Elvendom? I had hoped for some essays into this when I posed my questions because I'm honestly curious as to what effect such a unique place in the legendarium?

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."



Elizabeth
Valinor


Mar 27 2010, 6:20pm

Post #130 of 149 (714 views)
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A guess... [In reply to] Can't Post

...as to why this is "The heart of Elvendom on earth" is that by the Third Age so many Noldor had left that the presence of Galadriel and her Ring made Lorien a real defacto capital. Rivendell was much smaller, and Elrond was, after all, Halfelven. And the Woodland Elves were far lower status in the elven social hierarchy.






Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2010, 6:26pm

Post #131 of 149 (863 views)
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A good poet offers the poem not its meaning [In reply to] Can't Post

as that will be different for each reader. The Death of Arwen Evenstar is the culmination of the High Elves sojourn in Middle-earth. It also is signals the end of Lothlórien.

Niphredil A white flower that bloomed in Doriath in starlight when Lúthien was born grew also on Cerin Amroth in Lothlórien. The story of Beren & Lúthien parallels that of Aragorn & Arwen. Beren & Lúthien are on the headstone of Tolkien's grave.


Requiem for Lothlorien
At dreaming’s end a scything wind
Lays silver limbs to Winter's blade,
Feeds golden leaves to hungering earth,
Draws snow to cover summer's grave.

Then silent night, new bitter born
Falls cold upon this breathless wood
Where spring once held for an age of Man
And all that dwelt within was good.

Now comes the Lady last of all,
Fairest of her fair and ancient race,
Walking soundless through the deepening dark
Starlit tear lines drawn down her ageless face.

All have passed and here where it all began
She seeks solace in the memory, surcease and sorrows end.
In doubt of what her choice has wrought
In thought of that which might have been
She climbs the hill where they first met.

Kangi Ska

The Hobbit Deserves More Respect!

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


GAndyalf
Valinor

Mar 27 2010, 7:07pm

Post #132 of 149 (592 views)
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(smile) [In reply to] Can't Post

Your poem is evocative, but where is the sweetness among the sorrow? It is my opinion that when the poet speaks that meaning is offered, but couched into 'applicability' as opposed to allegory. Otherwise would not poetry be poignant only to poets? What I asked for was interpretations since I acknowledge that the poet does not offer the answer(s). Those answers will differ depending upon the respondent's level of reading on the topic, their recollection, their disposition to what those passages mean in relation to their own enjoyment of the tale(s), and so many other things. If memory serves, did not niphredil also bloom on the graves of the kings in Rohan?

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2010, 7:16pm

Post #133 of 149 (574 views)
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Simbelmyne or Evermind in ths common tongue [In reply to] Can't Post

grew on the mounds of Kings at Edoras.

Kangi Ska

The Hobbit Deserves More Respect!

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


GAndyalf
Valinor

Mar 27 2010, 7:21pm

Post #134 of 149 (704 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just means it's time to re-read the Tale again! Cool

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2010, 8:03pm

Post #135 of 149 (593 views)
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The Heart of Elvendom on earth [In reply to] Can't Post

"Haldir looked at them, and he seemed indeed to take the meaning of both
thought and word. He smiled. `You feel the power of the Lady of the Galadhrim,"

Galadriel wielding Nenya the Ring of Water and Ring of Adamant was the heart of Elvendom on Earth.
It was she that was responsible for Aragorn meeting her Granddaughter Arwen. It was she that was the last present who had stood against Morgoth and for her part in winning the war of the Ring and the defeat of Sauron she was granted salvation and a boat ride.

Kangi Ska

The Hobbit Deserves More Respect!

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2010, 8:09pm

Post #136 of 149 (653 views)
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Yes it is about time I reread the Silmarillion. It has been a couple years.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska

The Hobbit Deserves More Respect!

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


GAndyalf
Valinor

Mar 27 2010, 8:21pm

Post #137 of 149 (645 views)
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Am I to understand then... [In reply to] Can't Post

That for you the "heart of Elvendom on earth" was in fact the Lady Galadriel and not the mound of Cerin Amroth?

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."



fairelvenlady
Rivendell


Mar 27 2010, 8:26pm

Post #138 of 149 (659 views)
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Ioreth is a fun character. [In reply to] Can't Post

I always loved that line about about Ioreth having to stop talking because of the important ceremony. :-)

What happened when Legolas and Aragorn road with Eomer in the van.
Aragorn: Eomer, Legolas has his bow on my side of the seat!
Legolas: Well Aragorn keeps slapping me while practicing his "heroic" poses.
Eomer: Don't make me turn this van around.



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 27 2010, 8:41pm

Post #139 of 149 (661 views)
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A bit more difficult to explain [In reply to] Can't Post

Cerin Amroth was a place set aside from the normal flow of time and degradation by the power of Galadriel but it also was Galadriel.
One might call this mystery Elven Magic or perhaps the Sacred Heart of the Blessed Mother.


Kangi Ska

The Hobbit Deserves More Respect!

At night one cannot tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


FarFromHome
Valinor


Mar 28 2010, 1:01am

Post #140 of 149 (715 views)
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A little learning... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is a dangerous thing!

Ioreth remembers just enough of the old legends to be in a position to recognise the return of the King.

And later, we see how she's already turning Frodo's story into a new legend:

Why, cousin, one of them went with only his esquire into the Black Country and fought with the Dark Lord all by himself, and set fire to his Tower, if you can believe it. At least that is the tale in the City...

Just shows that it doesn't take long for "history" to become "legend"!

Wink

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



GAndyalf
Valinor

Mar 28 2010, 1:44am

Post #141 of 149 (622 views)
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Cool! [In reply to] Can't Post

I like that vision. I want to wait to see if anyone else does before I put forth my own interpretation.

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."



GAndyalf
Valinor

Mar 28 2010, 1:51am

Post #142 of 149 (1253 views)
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From a medieval history syllabus... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd taken in Windsor, ONT back in 1988:

"History is something that never happened, written by someone who wasn't there."

I wish I remembered who to attribute that to. That syllabus had about a dozen quotes on the cover about history by famous historical characters, all of them just as funny (and probably accurate) as that one.

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."



sevilodorf
Gondor


Mar 28 2010, 5:43pm

Post #143 of 149 (531 views)
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my own favorite quote [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no history, only fictions of varying degrees of plausibility.
Voltaire

History like beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com





Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Mar 28 2010, 6:03pm

Post #144 of 149 (723 views)
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And a big thank-you from me, too [In reply to] Can't Post

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through this thread, and listening to the erudite and good-humored voices of my 'sibs! I know I seldom actually contribute to much of the discussion here, but that doesn't mean I'm not taking it all in and feeling both stimulated and refreshed by it.

Cheers! Smile

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


FarFromHome
Valinor


Mar 29 2010, 1:09pm

Post #145 of 149 (1037 views)
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I guess it depends [In reply to] Can't Post

whether the image is of Cerin Amroth, where it's "sunlight and bright day right enough", or Caras Galadhon, which the Fellowship first see at dusk, "and as the night deepened more lights sprang forth, until all the hill seemed afire with stars." The contrast between the day and the night in this beautiful place is one of the things that most appeals to me. Perhaps Alan Lee captures it best - his Cerin Amroth, heavily (too heavily?) sprinkled with niphredil, is in the bright day, but we see hints of the dusk settling over Caras Galadhon in the distance.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


Mar 31 2010, 4:22am

Post #146 of 149 (885 views)
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The perilous realm [In reply to] Can't Post

Another way of saying much the same thing might be to refer to Tolkien's terminology in On Fairy-Stories.

Lothlorien - and especially Cerin Amroth - is the most perfectly realised "Secondary World" - the holy of holies of Faerie, you might say. What Frodo experiences - the colours all "fresh and poignant" are exactly what Tolkien describes as "recovery", one of the great gifts of the fantasy world of Faerie:

"...we need recovery. We should look at green again, and be startled anew (but not blinded) by blue and yellow and red....

Recovery ... is a re-gaining—regaining of a clear view. I do not say “seeing things as they are” and involve myself with the philosophers, though I might venture to say “seeing things as we are (or were) meant to see them”—as things apart from ourselves. We need, in any case, to clean our windows; so that the things seen clearly may be freed from the drab blur of triteness or familiarity—from possessiveness. ...

Creative fantasy ... may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you.

And that, I think, is what "elf magic" is - it's dangerous and powerful, but freeing as it allows you to shed your prejudices and see things anew. It's what Sam is getting at when he discusses the "peril" of Galadriel with Faramir. And it's also what Sam is getting at when he tells Frodo at Cerin Amroth that he feels as if he's "inside a song" - he feels the power of story, of Faerie, pulling him into the timeless Secondary World. Tolkien likes putting some of his most subtle thoughts into the simple words of Sam, I find, where they're easily overlooked - deliberately so on Tolkien's part, no doubt.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mar 31 2010, 2:33pm

Post #147 of 149 (765 views)
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Nicely said! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


Night Wolf
Rivendell


Apr 1 2010, 4:58pm

Post #148 of 149 (526 views)
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No. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hamlet: No!

from Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 3, line 87
(The rhythm of the iambic pentameter stops.)

Klaatu... Verata... Necktie. Nectar. Nickel, Noodle...Nikto!



Compa_Mighty
Tol Eressea


Apr 4 2010, 7:52pm

Post #149 of 149 (820 views)
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Wow! This is great! [In reply to] Can't Post

As usual, I didn't get here on time due to my -apparently inevitable- way of always forgetting to visit the Reading Room. I'll take a look at these patiently throughout the week.

Thanks everyone! You did not only a great, but a beautiful job!

Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!

Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!

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