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acheron
Gondor
Jan 26 2010, 2:32am
Post #1 of 15
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Akallabeth Part 1.1
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Hello, this week is the discussion for the first half of my favorite part of the Silmarillion, the Akallabeth. (I'm probably not going to type the diacritical marks on any words, hopefully you will all understand the meanings anyway!) To refresh your memory, the first half starts at the beginning and goes about until the introduction of Ar-Pharazon, specifically the sentence "and the name of his queen he changed to Ar-Zimraphel".
Also while I'm at it, if you're lucky I'll have a slightly late TORN-anniversary mathom for the end of the week. :)
Onto the first part! I put a few "questions"/discussion points in bold, feel free to talk about them or not as you will.
The Akallabeth is not part of the Silmarillion proper, and Tolkien wrote several other versions of the Numenor story. I'm sure Voronwe can tell us more; unfortunately I have not been able to acquire his book yet, so I will have to fumble a bit. :) But there was The Lost Road, and The Notion Club Papers, which are of course unfinished, and are both rather different from this straightforward retelling of the Numenor story. There is then a couple versions of The Fall of Numenor followed which seems to be a precursor to the Akallabeth. There is also The Drowning of Anadune, which is a retelling of the legend without the frame story of TLR or TNCP, but is different in some interesting ways. If you've read any of these, what do you think about them in comparison to the Akallabeth? Do you wish Tolkien had finished The Lost Road or The Notion Club Papers or was he right to abandon them?
There are also references to Numenor in LOTR (as I continue to not actually discuss the Akallabeth). Most obviously the very shortened account of the Downfall in Appendix A, but also throughout the text (more often as "Westernesse" if I recall correctly, but also the Quenya name). Gandalf says Elendil is "of Westernesse" in the "Shadow of the Past"; Elrond speaks at the Council of "Numenor... its glory and its fall". The Arnorians and Gondorians are often referred to as "Numenoreans" also. When reading LOTR before reading the Silmarillion, did you understand the story of Numenor and what had happened?
Onto the actual text in front of us. We start with a bit of a recap. Men come into the world in the shadow of Morgoth, and begin to worship the darkness. Some, later called the Edain, instead head west to Beleriand. Eventually Morgoth is defeated, and the Edain fight on the side of the Valar and Eldar. All previously covered in the Silmarillion proper, but as the Akallabeth is a bit of a separate story, we get the recap. There is also a bit of an Ainulindale recap at the beginning of the Valaquenta. Do you like the idea that the Silmarillion "book" is more of a collection of separate stories, as evidenced by the retelling of previous "chapters"? If we are to fully accept the Literary Agent Hypothesis, then we assume these stories were Bilbo's "translations from the Elvish" and "found" along with the Red Book. However, the Akallabeth seems to me more of a Mannish legend than the Elvish myths of the earlier parts. If you accept the Literary Agent Hypothesis, why do you think Bilbo would have included the Numenor story in his book of Elvish stories?
As a reward, the Edain are given knowledge and wisdom and long life, and follow the star of Earendil to a newly created island, which among other names is called "Anadune" in Adunaic and "Numenore" in Quenya. Star myths are common in legends; most similar to this is the Christian story of the three (or so) Magi/wise men following the Star of Bethlehem to find the infant Jesus Christ. Tolkien of course disliked allegory, but do you think he had the Magi story in mind?
Tomorrow: geography and religion!
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jan 26 2010, 4:40am
Post #2 of 15
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When reading LOTR before reading the Silmarillion, did you understand the story of Numenor and what had happened?
No, I got hints of greatness and tragedy, and that was enough for me - in fact, I think I like the sense of distance you get from not knowing about everything that's mentioned, better than having the whole story.
Do you like the idea that the Silmarillion "book" is more of a collection of separate stories, as evidenced by the retelling of previous "chapters"?
I do. It's not so much retelling, as just someone else telling the story in their own way. The four gospels are rather like that - some details are repeated, because each story was told independently.
If you accept the Literary Agent Hypothesis, why do you think Bilbo would have included the Numenor story in his book of Elvish stories?
Tolkien leaves plenty of wiggle-room for this. He tells us that the Red Book went to Minas Tirith, where the story was recopied and added to by Gondorian scholars. Those scholars probably had this other, Mannish, source of the same history and added it to Bilbo's work. (Literary Agent Hypothesis, eh? Never heard that term before - thanks for the link!)
Tolkien of course disliked allegory, but do you think he had the Magi story in mind?
I wouldn't call that allegory. This is just the reusing of mythic elements, which happens all the time in real myths as well as in Tolkien's own mythology.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Curious
Half-elven
Jan 26 2010, 5:30pm
Post #3 of 15
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As a reward, the Edain are given knowledge and wisdom and long life, and follow the star of Earendil to a newly created island, which among other names is called "Anadune" in Adunaic and "Numenore" in Quenya.
Isn't this unfair to Middle-earth? Why do the Valar seemingly abandon Middle-earth? Why do they give a few men a sort of quasi-Valinor, so that they, too, can abandon Middle-earth? The Valar recognize that Morgoth's evil seeds will continue to bear fruit in Middle-earth, so -- they leave, taking with them the very best elves and men. Why? Have they written off Middle-earth as a lost cause? Or are they so scared of Morgoth's taint that they dare not remain? Is there a long-term purpose behind Numenor? Is the idea to preserve the best of men until they grow strong enough to fight Sauron? Or did the Valar hope that the Numenoreans would never return to Middle-earth? How did the Valar misjudge men so badly? Or did they anticipate the fall of Numenor, and move forward because of the lasting benefits to the Faithful? Are the Valar six moves ahead of us, or is Morgoth's taint kicking them in the butt? Is Numenor a gift, or a huge mistake? In hindsight, would the Valar have acted differently? Do you think they should have acted differently?
To answer my own questions:
What were the Valar thinking?
I'm too humble to judge the Valar. But they don't seem to have anticipated the Fall of Numenor. Perhaps they made a mistake.
Isn't this unfair to Middle-earth? Why do the Valar seemingly abandon Middle-earth?
I think the Valar were genuinely stumped, knowing they could not rid Middle-earth of Morgoth's taint without destroying it. So they retreated, inviting anyone who wanted to join them to come along. But some of the most powerful Valar continued to watch over Middle-earth from afar.
Why do they give a few men a sort of quasi-Valinor, so that they, too, can abandon Middle-earth? The Valar recognize that Morgoth's evil seeds will continue to bear fruit in Middle-earth, so -- they leave, taking with them the very best elves and men. Why? Have they written off Middle-earth as a lost cause? Or are they so scared of Morgoth's taint that they dare not remain? Is there a long-term purpose behind Numenor? Is the idea to preserve the best of men until they grow strong enough to fight Sauron?
They have not written off Middle-earth, but they don't know how to get rid of Morgoth's taint. So they retreat and wait to see what will happen, essentially putting Middle-earth in quarantine until the Shadow reforms and shows itself. Maybe if they had more faith they would have stayed, but they would have invited trouble if they had done so, like someone who chooses to stay in a city with the plague. By retreating to Valinor they preserved their ability to intervene later. By giving men Numenor they preserved a superior breed and culture of men who were reintroduced into Middle-earth after Numenor fell.
Or did the Valar hope that the Numenoreans would never return to Middle-earth?
It does seem that Numenor would have survived if the Numenoreans had not reestablished relationships with Middle-earth. But I don't think the Numenoreans can be blamed for responding to Gil-galad's call for help, even if it did result in Numenor's fall. I don't think the Valar expected Numenor to remain forever cut-off from Middle-earth. They did not forbid the Numenoreans to return, or cut them off after they did so.
How did the Valar misjudge men so badly? Or did they anticipate the fall of Numenor, and move forward because of the lasting benefits to the Faithful? Are the Valar six moves ahead of us, or is Morgoth's taint kicking them in the butt? Is Numenor a gift, or a huge mistake? In hindsight, would the Valar have acted differently? Do you think they should have acted differently?
I don't think we are in a position to judge the Valar. Perhaps they knew the risk, and thought the rewards were great enough to justify the risk. Or perhaps, in hindsight, they would never have retreated to Valinor in the first place, let alone at the end of the First Age. It's hard to say what would have happened if they had acted differently. But if they were perfect, they wouldn't be Valar, they would be Eru.
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acheron
Gondor
Jan 26 2010, 8:01pm
Post #4 of 15
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Thanks for the new questions; this seems like part of a larger question I was trying to figure out how to bring up.
Throughout the Silmarillion, it seems like Men get the short end of the stick somewhat. Not necessarily in the faith/Gift of Illuvatar/death sense that is often debated in the book, but just in how the Valar treat them. While the Eldar get a personal Valarian escort to the West, Men are left to the shadow of Morgoth. A comparatively few Men manage to resist the Shadow and find their way as far as Beleriand, and become the Edain, but are still basically ignored by the Valar. Finally, after Earendil and the destruction of Beleriand, the Valar seem guilted into giving at least something to Men, but they limit it only to the Edain, and as you say, basically abandon the rest of the Men back in Middle-earth, and encourage the Edain to do so as well.
Perhaps you are right in that the Valar are 'above' such judgment from us, but it's easy to see how Sauron could convince the Numenoreans that listening to the Valar was not in their best interest. (A topic for part 2, though!)
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Curious
Half-elven
Jan 26 2010, 8:31pm
Post #5 of 15
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Actually, I did not say that the Valar abandoned Middle-earth.
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I raised the question, and I think it is a fair question, but I believe that the Valar engaged in a strategic retreat while keeping a close eye on Middle-earth from afar. And I think the Valar continued to influence events in Middle-earth from afar.
Nor do I think the Edain were ignored by the Valar once they reached Numenor -- on the contrary, I think the Edain were blessed in every endeavor until they essentially turned their backs on the Valar. And even then the Faithful continued to be blessed.
Finally, the Valar did not forbid the Edain from returning to Middle-earth as they had the Noldor. It seems to me that the Valar contemplated that return, and perhaps even created Numenor so that the Edain could prepare for that return. At the same time, I think the Valar recognized that Middle-earth was filled with Morgoth's taint, and that when Numenoreans returned to Middle-earth they would become infected with that taint. The Valar had to trust that Eru could deal with Morgoth's taint, because the Valar could only delay its effects. Eventually, the Valar had to call on Eru to protect the Undying Lands from Morgoth's taint. But even after that, the Valar continued to keep an eye on Middle-earth, sent messengers to Middle-earth, and directly and indirectly intervened in Middle-earth from afar.
Maybe it would have been better for the Valar to remain in Middle-earth, side by side with the best of the Eldar and Edain. But I don't interpret their strategic retreat as abandonment, nor do I consider the Valar passive observers after the War of Wrath. Rather, instead of destroying the rest of Middle-earth the way they had destroyed Beleriand, the Valar chose more subtle methods of intervention.
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acheron
Gondor
Jan 26 2010, 10:54pm
Post #6 of 15
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Yes, I realize you didn't assert that when you answered your questions, but that is the phrasing you used. Saying "as you said" was ambiguous, I apologize. :)
The Edain were blessed on Numenor for awhile, yes, but the Edain were only a subset of Men in general; the descendants of those who managed to find their way west to Beleriand without a guide. The descendants of the other Men who were left in Middle-earth originally are still left, and not given a chance, so to speak. Some of this comes up more in "Of the Rings of Power".
What do you mean by "At the same time, I think the Valar recognized that Middle-earth was filled with Morgoth's taint, and that when Numenoreans returned to Middle-earth they would become infected with that taint."? Not sure I am following that.
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Curious
Half-elven
Jan 27 2010, 12:10am
Post #7 of 15
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"Just as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring,
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Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda, thus 'the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring.'"
From Morgoth's Ring (sorry, I can't find the exact cite).
It seems to me that Numenor was free from that taint until the Numenoreans began going back and forth to Middle-earth.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jan 27 2010, 12:42am
Post #8 of 15
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The attitude of the Valar to Men does seem strange in comparison to that of the Eldar. It's almost as if the Valar never quite understood the nature of mortality despite all there wise words on the subject. But on the other hand, what else could they have done? Perhaps they could have rewarded all of the types of Man, equally. But given the weaknesses of Men and given that we know that they will screw up in all guises, would that have been better? Perhaps they could have given all of Men a little reward and then abandoned them. Taken them all to Valinor and looked after Man like a pet, perhaps? But that didn't work out to well to the Noldor. In the Silmarillion, everyone makes mistakes! I do think that is the general theme of the work!
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hanne
Lorien
Jan 27 2010, 1:12am
Post #9 of 15
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answering both threads... Men echo Elves
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What were the Valar thinking?
Exactly what they thought before, with the Elves? I think the Numenor story is like an echo, another version of the Elvish story, except instead of getting Valinor itself, the Edain (= Calyaquendi I guess, as opposed to the rest of Men = Moraquendi) get Numenor. But they do the same rebellion thing, and the same civil war/kinslaying thing, and it's all instigated by a lieutenant of Morgoth instead of Morgoth itself. And it still ends with the sinking of a continent. As a literary thing, I find this fascinating. Inside the world of Middle Earth, of course, I don't know how to answer this question.
When reading LOTR before reading the Silmarillion, did you understand the story of Numenor and what had happened?
No, not a clue. But it was haunting, Faramir's poetic description.(And deadly dull, the Appendix treatment!)
Do you like the idea that the Silmarillion "book" is more of a collection of separate stories, as evidenced by the retelling of previous "chapters"?
Yes, love it. See first comment above!
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jan 27 2010, 1:40am
Post #10 of 15
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when viewed through the other end of the telescope.
Like all human myths, the stories have to explain the situation as it is - and we know that men are incapable of being wholly good. There is always evil in the world, and so the stories we tell ourselves have to account for that. Looked at like this, the Valar's abandonment of the ordinary men of Middle-earth is the equivalent, in this mythology, of original sin. You could argue that God was mistaken in allowing the Devil's taint to infect every child born to Adam and Eve for so long before the Redeemer came (and even then, as we know, Evil was not defeated). But that's the setup. You have to account for evil somehow because it's part of what we are.
In Tolkien's story, the Valar act almost like conservationists do today, taking some of a species to protect it when they know that they can't control the environment that is destroying them. I think we have to see that the Valar are far from all-knowing, and simply don't know how to defeat evil, which by its very nature always rises again - and which paradoxically seems all the stronger for having been apparently defeated by force. What LotR tells us that passive resistance is always the better way. But even that gives only a respite. The longer view tells us that Eru knows all and can in the end weave even the effects of evil into the great music - which reflects one of the philosophical ways of viewing suffering, that of accepting it willingly as a way to purification and wisdom.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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sador
Half-elven
Jan 27 2010, 9:29am
Post #11 of 15
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If you've read any of these, what do you think about them in comparison to the Akallabeth?
Different altogether. The Lost Road has a bit of Numenor in it, and The Notion Club Papers even less - although they have quite a lot about Adunaic, for those who might be interested in it.
It's really hard to compare.
Do you wish Tolkien had finished The Lost Road or The Notion Club Papers or was he right to abandon them?
At what cost? Would that mean less work on The Lord of the Rings? No thank you. The overhaul of The Silmarillion and the Annals? Probably not.
But I would love to have them finished - and from what there is, I like The Notion Club Papers far better than The Lost Road.
When reading LOTR before reading the Silmarillion, did you understand the story of Numenor and what had happened?
No. But I understood it was critical.
Once I got to Appendix A, I didn't feel put out by the dryness someone has commented about - after Faramir's words of Numenor, it was simply trying to understand them by reading the background.
Do you like the idea that the Silmarillion "book" is more of a collection of separate stories, as evidenced by the retelling of previous "chapters"?
Yes.
If you accept the Literary Agent Hypothesis, why do you think Bilbo would have included the Numenor story in his book of Elvish stories?
I for one think this Hypothesis is true - in terms of Tolkien striving to fit his stories in such a framework.
The fact that sometimes the story was written so well it sometimes involved elements which couldn't have fit into that frame (especially in LotR) does not contradict it.
Tolkien of course disliked allegory, but do you think he had the Magi story in mind?
All the time.
But no, I don't think the myth of stars refers directly to the Star of Betlehem - these myths have been around pretty long before King Herod's time; see for instance Numbers 24:17.
"Why should we not go to Avallónë and greet there our friends?" - the Númenóreans.
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sador
Half-elven
Jan 27 2010, 1:44pm
Post #12 of 15
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Just to point out - if you are interested in leading a discussion, "Forewords, Tables, Note, Index, and Appendices" is still free. What were the Valar thinking?
I think that basically, the Valar realised that Men (and Middle-earth itself) were tainte by Morgoth. Their idea was perhaps to take these Men who actually rebelled against Morgoth into somewhere safe, relatively free from the taint - and perhaps encourage them to ultimately return to Middle-earth as teachers, and ambassadors of the Valar themselves. To return as healers, not as warlords - based on the Prophecy that Men will one day heal the Marring of Arda.
Isn't this unfair to Middle-earth? Why do the Valar seemingly abandon Middle-earth?
I would call it investing. But yes, it is unfair in the short term, to Middle-earth's inhabitants. On the other hand, it will take the Shadow time to grow.
Why do they give a few men a sort of quasi-Valinor, so that they, too, can abandon Middle-earth? Ultimately, they will return - enriched by their Valinor-like experience. At least that is what the Valar hope. The Valar recognize that Morgoth's evil seeds will continue to bear fruit in Middle-earth, so -- they leave, taking with them the very best elves and men. Why? Have they written off Middle-earth as a lost cause? Manwe and Ulmp haven't. Some of the others probably did. Or are they so scared of Morgoth's taint that they dare not remain? Perhaps they were weakened themselves, in a way corresponding to how Morgoth was merely a weakened form of the Melkor of old. In fact, The Second Prophecy of Mandos uses this idea - that eventually the Valar will grow old, and lose their power. Is there a long-term purpose behind Numenor? Is the idea to preserve the best of men until they grow strong enough to fight Sauron? Not Sauron specifically - any manifestation of evil lingering behind, the seed of Morgoth. And it's not just to preserve, but to educate and enhance these Men.
Or did the Valar hope that the Numenoreans would never return to Middle-earth?
I don't think so.
How did the Valar misjudge men so badly? The Valar simply know nothing of what rules Men's hearts. They made enough mistakes with the Elves, which they should have known better. I actually think that leaving them midway between the Blessed Realm and Middle-earth was in part a lesson from the experience with the Eldar. Or did they anticipate the fall of Numenor, and move forward because of the lasting benefits to the Faithful? I doubt it; but they knew the Prophecy that Men will be the vehicle of ultimate victory, and that was their way to help some towards that goal - they probably knew Men will be subject to temptation even on Numenor, but I don't think they foresaw the fall of Ar-Pharazon. Are the Valar six moves ahead of us, or is Morgoth's taint kicking them in the butt? Yes. Is Numenor a gift, or a huge mistake? A gift. It could be a mistake as well. What was the question? In hindsight, would the Valar have acted differently? Very probably. But that does not mean the alternative course would have been ultimately better. Do you think they should have acted differently?
I don't persume to judge. As a mortal, I am forbidden to slay anyone (save for self-defense); but had I had true vision and foreknowledge, wouldn't I be justified to deal death to others in cases of great need? I don't know, and dare not speculate. I am too much bounded by my Humanness to properly grasp the dilemma. How can I tell?
"Why should we not go to Avallónë and greet there our friends?" - the Númenóreans.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jan 27 2010, 2:46pm
Post #13 of 15
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That's pretty much how I see it.
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And I'll have to pass on leading a discussion. I can't commit myself right now. I'm much more comfortable hijacking a discussion. :-)
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batik
Tol Eressea
Jan 28 2010, 1:50am
Post #14 of 15
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If you've read any of these, what do you think about them in comparison to the Akallabeth? Do you wish Tolkien had finished The Lost Road or The Notion Club Papers or was he right to abandon them?
Pass--have not ready either.
When reading LOTR before reading the Silmarillion, did you understand the story of Numenor and what had happened?
Heck no! And since this will count as my first "in depth" reading of TS, I am especially looking forward to the time when I read LotR again. Just think of it! All those connections I have a chance at making this time. 
Do you like the idea that the Silmarillion "book" is more of a collection of separate stories, as evidenced by the retelling of previous "chapters"?
Why, yes I do. At times, I feel like I've gotten just a brief glimpse of an event/person so the 'telling of" from another viewpoint (? hmmm) gives me a chance to revisit rather than reading the chapter again.
If you accept the Literary Agent Hypothesis, why do you think Bilbo would have included the Numenor story in his book of Elvish stories?
The whaaaat? Nah. I saw the link. For me, the stories are connected and belong together. And Tolkien reminds us (me, anyhow) of that when he calls attention to the line of Elros existing among those living in Numenor. I know that Elros chose the *mortal* way but the Elvish line is a part of his heritage, right?
Tolkien of course disliked allegory, but do you think he had the Magi story in mind?
Perhaps it was rolling around somewhere in there. After all a person doesn't *unknow* a story and I assume Tolkien knew the story of the Magi well. Do I think he set out to create his own version of this? I dunno. Did he comment on this?
(This post was edited by batik on Jan 28 2010, 1:51am)
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BigSwami
Registered User
Jan 29 2010, 7:27pm
Post #15 of 15
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What were the Valar thinking?
The Valar are very powerful, but have never been presented as omnipotent, nor as omniscient. They did what they thought was the honorable thing to do. If you were engaged in an eternal struggle to preserve the world you shaped, and one kindred of Men assisted you in that struggle at a crucial time, why wouldn't you reward them?
Isn't this unfair to Middle-earth? Why do the Valar seemingly abandon Middle-earth?
Again, the Valar are not all-powerful. They do not have the power to cure Middle-earth of all its hurts, especially since a huge lot of Men have voluntarily taken part in those hurts. The Elves have learned their lesson and are humbled or exiled. Men now determine the future of Arda. The Valar cannot declare war on Men. But I think it's important to keep in mind that the Valar have mostly kept out of the affairs of Middle-earth for a very long time before the Second Age - since Valinor was created, in fact.
Why do they give a few men a sort of quasi-Valinor, so that they, too, can abandon Middle-earth? The Valar recognize that Morgoth's evil seeds will continue to bear fruit in Middle-earth, so -- they leave, taking with them the very best elves and men. Why? Have they written off Middle-earth as a lost cause? Or are they so scared of Morgoth's taint that they dare not remain? Is there a long-term purpose behind Numenor? Is the idea to preserve the best of men until they grow strong enough to fight Sauron?
Morgoth was of course once Melkor, the most powerful of all the Ainur. I believe that two things have contributed to the attitude of the Valar towards Middle-earth: first, that they may not be powerful enough to undo Morgoth's damage; second, that the Valar are impersonal powers, and their concern has never really been especially centered on Elves or Men, but rather on Arda itself. After all the good they have done in the world, and all the creativity expended to shape it, they may not have the heart to invest their energy defending their works against a pernicious and seemingly inevitable decline.
Or did the Valar hope that the Numenoreans would never return to Middle-earth?
I do not think so. Numenor was never completely isolated, and stayed in contact with Middle-earth almost from the beginning. I don't even think their imperialistic designs are what caused them to falter, either. I believe it was only when their imperialism turned to hubris that they began to lose their footing. Who can blame the Numenoreans for wanting to rule the world of Men? They had every right to do so, as they were superior to all Men, and it was probably kinder to the Men of the Twilight that they were ruled by Men wiser than themselves. But when the Numenoreans believed that their gifts enabled them to keep Sauron as a prisoner without inflicting harm on themselves, they descended into idiocy. But such are the ways of Men.
How did the Valar misjudge men so badly? Or did they anticipate the fall of Numenor, and move forward because of the lasting benefits to the Faithful? Are the Valar six moves ahead of us, or is Morgoth's taint kicking them in the butt? Is Numenor a gift, or a huge mistake? In hindsight, would the Valar have acted differently? Do you think they should have acted differently?
The Valar do not completely understand Men any more than the Elves do. I think evolution is really the key concept. Immortal beings really cannot wrap their heads around the idea that Men, by constantly dying, constantly also reinvent themselves. The memories of Men are short, and their cultures change rapidly. This is their blessing and their curse. It enables them to dominate all of Arda though sheer numbers, but it also makes them susceptible to manipulation. The Three Kindreds are of Illuvatar, not of the Valar, and the Valar love them, but do not fully understand them. The Valar play by their own rules instead.
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