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Beren IV
Gondor
May 6 2007, 5:10am
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Post-Tolkien fantasy artwork: Sexuality (and femininity)
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Please pardon further delays and short posts: my disk is acting up, and I'm trying to fix it.
For religious reasons sexuality was a sticky issue for Tolkien. It is difficult perhaps to understand the context of the issue's stickiness for one who does not ascribe to Tolkien's religion, and perhaps difficult even for somebody who does share Tolkien's faith but who does not share the same ultra-conservative outlook. This is in part due to the conflicting definitions of the word 'lust' that exist even in the dictionary. In Tolkien's case, unlike many conservative religious authors who actively portrayed the villains of their stories as being lustful as well as evil in other ways, Tolkien went out of his way to remove sexuality almost entirely from his story: nearly all of the characters are male, the 'love' in the story is almost all fraternal, and the most explicit reference to actual sex in the story is the simple fact that Sam and Rosie had thirteen children. Some of Tolkien's unpublished works, notably The Mariner's Wife and Laws and Customs Among the Eldar are far more explicit, but even so Tolkien evades the question of what a healthy and virtuous sexuality in Middle-Earth consists of: the relationship between Aldarion and Erendis is a glowing example of what it should not be like, and although Tolkien discusses Elves' desire to procreate in his essay, at no point does he discuss the nature of physical interest or attraction to each-other among their race. But in the published works, there simply aren't any references to sexuality: the absence of sexuality is hardly explicit either (indeed, it has to be present - again, Sam and Rosie had thirteen children!).
With the almost unique exception of the painting of Maria Lombarde Ezpeleta, artwork depicting Tolkien's fantasy is, for the most part, remarkably asexual. Although Tolkien's overwhelming use of male characters precludes an abundance of male-female coexistence in art depicting his world, many if not most of the pictures that do depict female characters portray them in a very androgenous fashion. Only Lúthien, it seems to me, is often portrayed in a manner that is not androgenous. Of course, the favorite depiction of Galadriel by Howe in last week's discussion was also fairly feminine, so there are exceptions here and there, but in much of the Tolkien artwork I have seen, there are are characters in the background whom I cannot tell whether they are male, female, or a mixture of both.
Much of the artwork depicting characters, especially women, in modern fantasy clearly depicts the characters physical bodies and the potentially sensuous nature of the subject matter. It is understandable in fantasy that some of the races might not be as sexually minded as humans, but many of the races, especially elves, are often described as being very sexual creatures. Much of the artwork in existence portrays them accordingly, wearing clothing or even armor that fits over their bodies and accentuates their physical features rather than concealing them (as armor, by default, would).
1. Why do you think that Tolkien-legendarium artwork is generally non-sensuous and asexual, given that the world is not explicitly asexual itself? Are the artists trying to be "true to Tolkien"? Does Tolkien simply inspire an atmosphere that evokes asexuality in the mind of the artist?
2. I mentioned Ezpeleta. The other prominant Tolkien artist who arguably portrays characters in a physically appealing manner is Anke Eissmann, who, like Ezpeleta and unlike Lee, Nasmith, Howe, or the Hildebrandts, is a woman. Do you think that the bias toward asexuality in Tolkien-inspired artwork is somehow related to the majority of the artists being men?
__________
A few D&D images
Males of the standard (normally playable) D&D races (note the differences among races that is itself non-Tolkienian!)
Females of the standard (normally playable) D&D races
A few other female D&D characters:
by Ginger Kubic
By Steven Belledin
Some non-D&D but still modern fantasy
Some Laura Diehl illustrations:
Dark Warriors
Another Realm
*
3. What is it about non-Tolkienian fantasy that creates more physically descriptive of characters' and creatures' bodies fantasy artwork?
4. One complaint in the media generally about the depiction of women in particular is their treatment as "sex-objects" by male artists and male directors. However, a fair number of the images I have just posted, as well as several others earlier this week (see Guay's book art earlier in this discussion) were painted by women. Do you notice a difference between female-painted depictions of men and women and male-painted depictions?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
(This post was edited by Ataahua on May 6 2007, 7:28pm)
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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea
May 6 2007, 4:28pm
Post #2 of 17
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3. What is it about non-Tolkienian fantasy that creates more physically descriptive of characters' and creatures' bodies fantasy artwork?
Your topic this week inspired me the other day to search for some fantasy images by a post-Tolkien illustrator I like who is noted for his book cover art. I don't know much about gaming specifically; but, in general, there seem to be two schools of fantasy art out there, the Heroic, of which you have found lots of examples, and a New Romantic approach that is more decorative and less physically sensual. I seem to have noticed more of the latter than you have. Could that be because of my gender, the fact that I haven't had much exposure to gaming, or some other reason that my tastes or experiences differ from yours? Who knows. Anyway, I don't want to interrupt your exploration of what you've found so I'd like to wait till your final, summary post to show one example.
~~~~~~~~
I used to be GaladrielTX, but it's springtime and I'm shedding.
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Beren IV
Gondor
May 6 2007, 5:41pm
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an awful lot of artists have a very limited number of body types for their characters, as I posted in my opening thread. All of the men are extremely muscular, and all of the women are at least moderately busty, and a lot are a whole lot more than that. There is other art out there, I agree, and I have been posting things that I thought contrasted from Tolkien-based art. Personally, the "bosoms and brawn" style I think gets kinda old - it's fine to have some characters that look like that, but not when everybody does. Nonetheless, the point of this post was to illustrate that the shapes of character bodies in Tolkien-based art is usually hidden, but not in art depicting subsequent fantasy, even when it isn't like what you see above. Some of Rebecca Guay's artwork that I posted in previous posts is an example of this: the sleeping woman under the unicorn isn't so busty as some of the women portrayed here, but her body shape is still plenty visible. Excluding Ezpeleta, Eissmann, and in a few cases, Howe, this doesn't seem to be the case much in Tolkien-based artwork, and even for them it's restricted to a very small subset of the characters.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 6 2007, 7:29pm
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Yes, it appears that the bigger the breasts,
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the better the fighter a woman is - hence no A cup sizes in battle bras.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
(This post was edited by Ataahua on May 6 2007, 7:30pm)
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Elberbeth
Tol Eressea
May 6 2007, 8:23pm
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the opposite would be true.
"There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."
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squire
Half-elven
May 7 2007, 12:39pm
Post #6 of 17
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No sex please, we're Tolkien fans
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I think you have an interesting point that Tolkien artists tend to follow his lead in de-sexualizing their illustrations of his work. I wonder if that isn’t part of the larger issue of how even the professional Tolkien artists aren’t particularly strong in portraiture either. Perhaps illustrators like to work with writers whose strengths are their strengths. In Tolkien’s case: scenery, atmosphere and action, rather than character, faces, bodies – and sex.
That said, don’t relegate sexy Tolkien pictures just to the divine Maria Lombide. Here are some others I’ve come across in the past few years:
Here’s my favorite hot Galadriel. Donato is into the human figure first, rather than last, as anyone who’s seen his Renaissance-influenced Tolkien art knows.
Here’s two illustrations of Eowyn by a “non-Tolkien” illustrator, from the more mainstream tradition of sword and sorcery fantasy. Frank Frazetta is clearly concerned about the issue of overheating on the battlefield due to excessive clothing under one's armor:
And then if you want to go further afield than LotR, there’s always Lúthien, who can range from Andreina DAmbrosio's moderately sexy:
to absurd (I don't know the artist's name, but I wouldn't give it if I did, to protect him/her):
*wipes brow* (secretly admits to loving this one for its camp qualities)
And her gorgeous Mom, Melian (Dan Govar never fails to intrigue me):
Melian of course was of the Maiar. What about all those female Valar? For instance, Yavanna, by Janin:
And Varda, by Holgersen:
*takes quick cold shower*
But in my experience most old-style Tolkien fans, who like him for his stories, will tend to reject overtly sexy illustrations. The argument is plainly: the books are not sexy at all, so why should the illustrations be?
But then I’d like to know where the idea of sexy illustrations for “Tolkien-style” (sword and sorcery, D&D, etc.) fantasy comes from, since it obviously doesn’t come from Tolkien.
To the degree that this style features hypersexualized bodies – ripped hunky men with tremendous swords and pneumatic women in metal bikinis -- it tends to reinforce the old joke that fantasy fans (and fantasy illustrators) are primarily hormone-addled adolescent boys of all ages who don’t get to go out with girls, but would very much like to. (From a Bloom County strip on comic book artists: “As you can see, I draw women who look like Dolly Parton in zero gravity.”) Illustrators like this seem to want to draw sexy scenes first, with only secondary attention to the details or tone of the story – if there even is a story. So much of this stuff approaches pin-up art, such as your example of D&D warrior lady.
But since the artist of that one is a woman, as are several others in the examples we're looking at today, that old joke is clearly out of date. What do female illustrators see in their versions of what I'd call the unrealistically sexy bodies of the traditional fantasy genre? What do female fans see? I ask primarily because I was one of those adolescent boys, and I know what I saw. Girls made (mild) fun of me for my obsession back in the day, saying they couldn't understand who could imagine that women looked like that; some even said (at the height of a strongly feminist decade) that they resented such art because of the burden it puts on normal women to meet unrealistic expectations, etc.
There is also an influence in these images from comic books/graphic novels, which are the inheritors of the tradition of pulp adventure stories, whose cover illustrators were providing boys and men with exciting and sexy images when Tolkien was just deciding what a hobbit was. In this style the pictures are the fantasy, and the text just supplies a story to provide an excuse for them.
Obviously that’s completely opposite to how most serious Tolkien illustrators approach their work: they would say the text comes first, I think. As I said, the intellectual connection between Sword and Sorcery or D&D, and Tolkien, is so tenuous, that the intersection of their illustrators seems almost comical, based on a third-generation inheritance of the much-reinterpreted legacy Tolkien left for the entire universe of modern fantasy.
One last remark on the illustrations you show: that D&D “female” character set is a travesty. It’s one thing to go overboard and draw all women in fantasy as sexy, but those people look like second-rate transvestites at a fairly disreputable Con. Is the artist purposefully providing interchangeable and almost indistinguishable male and female versions of the same heroes, so that players can be either gender without confronting the implications of that kind of choice? Or do so few women play D&D, the artist doesn’t even know or care what makes a woman’s body and face different from a man’s – we won’t go into the idea of women’s character and the unlikelihood of the male fantasy of Amazon warriors in general.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Idril Celebrindal
Tol Eressea
May 7 2007, 2:43pm
Post #7 of 17
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It's not just illustrations -- exaggerated bosoms are common in fantasy miniature figures and collectible sculptures, too.
I think comics have influenced the general bustiness of female characters in fantasy illustrations. Look at how most comic-book heroines are drawn, with exaggerated breasts, hair, hips, and other female characteristics. This may have set a precedent for fantastic art in general.
Another thing to consider is that artists may be illustrating for a specific audience -- in this case, the stereotypical fantasy fan base of teenaged boys and young men. An exaggerated, sexualized female figure presumably attracts their interest. 
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
May 7 2007, 3:46pm
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It makes me think of comics too
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and they are the descendants of the pulp fiction of the early 20th century, which also used this style of illustration. Here's a link to a Wikipedia article about the magazine Weird Tales, which seems to have been one of the first 'fantasy' magazines (first published in 1923), and you can see that lurid cover art was a part of that genre from the start (the article talks about a female illustrator for Weird Tales who was particularly successful with her "many striking images, especially of nude or semi-nude young women in provocative poses...")
I got to the Weird Tales article via an interesting one on Sword and Sorcery too, which makes it clear that this genre was already an active source of highly-coloured literature before LotR came along. It seems as if the familiar elements of LotR - the heroes, monsters, magic and so on - were just happily absorbed into this already-active world, ignoring the fact that in other ways, LotR is totally different in style and intent.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 7 2007, 4:39pm
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The more things change..... (Caution: Naughty picture.)
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3. What is it about non-Tolkienian fantasy that creates more physically descriptive of characters' and creatures' bodies fantasy artwork?
Tradition?
Busty Amazons fighting brawny Greeks.
All is not gold that glitters,
All is not pure that shines.
Follow your mother's teachings
And happiness will be thine!
-Bugs Bunny, "Bowery Bugs", 1949.
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 7 2007, 4:41pm
Post #10 of 17
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...after many self-described Purists felt Miranda Otto was not buxom enought to play Eowyn. Lot's of complaints on the board back then.
All is not gold that glitters,
All is not pure that shines.
Follow your mother's teachings
And happiness will be thine!
-Bugs Bunny, "Bowery Bugs", 1949.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
May 7 2007, 5:54pm
Post #11 of 17
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...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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WonderBroad
Lorien
May 8 2007, 1:36am
Post #12 of 17
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>>to absurd (I don't know the artist's name, but I wouldn't give it if I did, to protect him/her):
That would be Rowena Morrill.
I remember when this Beren and Luthien painting first appeared in one of those "Great Illustrators" editions of the Tolkien calendar, way back about in the early 80s. I don't know a single person who is...neutral...about this painting!
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Beren IV
Gondor
May 8 2007, 5:16am
Post #13 of 17
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I think I can identify one of the reasons
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why female artists create pictures like this, although I'm not sure I follow your final paragraph. But the reason for female artists, I think, is that it all boils down to biology. This isn't a discussion on human evolution, but suffice it to say, men are stimulated by visions of attractive females, as you say. Women, by contrast, are less stimulated by visions of attractive males, but rather like to identify themselves with visions of attractive females. As a result, images of attractive females are stimulating to both men and women, and all of them purely heterosexual.
As for female players of role-playing games, I don't know what the population of D&D players is total, but I do know that nearly everybody in the SCA plays D&D, male or female - and the SCA is about half female. The missing term in the equation is how many D&D players are not SCA, and there the impression I get is most of them, but even so I have known many several D&D players, so it's definitely not all male.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Owlyross
Rohan
May 8 2007, 3:02pm
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There is the oft-quoted example of Amazonian women cutting off a breast in order to fire a bow better or throw a spear, which is where the word comes from...
a- "without" + mazos "breasts," hence the story that the Amazons cut or burned off one breast so they could draw bowstrings more efficiently
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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diedye
Grey Havens
May 15 2007, 2:30pm
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... Kate Moss presenting at an awards show.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 26 2014, 4:36pm
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Ah, the "Big bra to fill" problem...
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All our beloved favorite super-heroines have boobage by the truckload. The problem is, most actresses don't. Comic book proportions are relatively hard to find in Real Life (especially among the acting population), so more often than not, the folks behind the movies simply won't try to replicate the sizable endowments of their comic book counterparts, and will cast actors who are noticeably more commonly proportioned. Of course, slim actresses with large breasts usually can't get work because the industry considers anything above a C to be "huge" and will only cast her as eye candy. And the majority of actresses who have G-cups and bigger tend to be Hollywood Pudgy. http://tvtropes.org/...hp/Main/BigBraToFill
Kinda funny, unless you're a slim, buxom, resting thespian, I suppose.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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