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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 21 2009, 5:37am
Post #1 of 5
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“Eldamar” & “Fëanor” & “Silmarils” & “Darkening” – Open Discussion on four chapters
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This post concludes two weeks of discussion on “Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië”, “Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor”, “Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor” and “Of the Darkening of Valinor”. I apologize for the irregular posting schedule. Please use this thread for open discussion about any aspect of those four chapters, in which the Eldar cross the sea to Aman, flourish and grow, quarrel, and see the light fail. (One question as a starter: what do you find most interesting in these four chapters?) Thank you for your participation!
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We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor" and "Of the Darkening of Valinor".
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 22 2009, 2:05pm
Post #2 of 5
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Four chapters is a formidable undertaking - one worthy of you!
What do I find the most interesting in these chapters - mmm, difficult to say. When I was younger I liked the high drama of Melkor and Ungoliant the best, but now I might vote for the reconciliation of Feanor and Fingolfin.
Also, the death of Miriel is a fascinating story - although I still haven't made up my mind whether the debate of the Valar should have been included in the published Silmarillion or not. For comitted fans, it is tremendous stuff - but would it be for the average reader? I doubt it.
Speaking of Miriel, your question on the previous thread about the drowning of Numenor reminded me of the other tragic heroine which bore the same name.
As far as I understand, Tolkien first gave the name to Ar-Pharazon's wife; or am I mistaken? What can we learn from this of how he saw Miriel's character? How does it effect us, as readers who come from the Silmarillion to the Akallabeth? And how many remember the name from the appendices when reading the sixth chapter?
Thank you again! And Hamfast Gamgee too, for whatever assistance he gave!
"It may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly" - Olwe.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 22 2009, 4:41pm
Post #3 of 5
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I've actually managed to read these four chapters with care and attention, for the very first time! I have always been put off by Tolkien's exaggeratedly "ancient" style, as well as by the OTT piling-on of names, and this is the first time I've ever fully read through this section of the Sil. Now I'm more used to the style, I'm finding that it hides some intriguing ambiguities (like whether or not the Silmarils are "living"...) and a lot of complex ideas that are quickly stated and then passed over. I suppose it's not surprising that, as with LotR, there always seems to be more going on than what you see on the surface. In the case of the Sil, though, there's sometimes so little to see on the surface that it's hard to make the commitment to dig out what's there underneath.
I still don't see the point of so much detail about the formation of the various Elvish "tribes", based on when (and if) they get to Valinor. We just don't get enough information about the groups to make all that detail meaningful, or at least that's how it seemed to me. Even if the differences between the groups are going to play a greater part later in the story, I would still think that those differences should have been set up in a more personalized, memorable way.
The other thing that struck me is how little I respond to the names. I know Tolkien said that he wrote the stories to give the names a home, as it were. I also recall that he (like Proust, in fact) believed in the aesthetic appeal of the sound of words separate from their meaning. Yet most of the names don't seem particularly beautiful to me - they are too pretentious and precious, somehow. And all those diacritical marks make them look so fussy. Simplicity would have appealed to me so much more!
Anyway, thank you so much for coming up with such probing questions over the last couple of weeks. I now feel that I've experienced these chapters in a meaningful way. I'm still not sure I like this book, but I think I'm starting to appreciate it, at any rate!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 24 2009, 4:37am
Post #4 of 5
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The other thing that struck me is how little I respond to the names...
Not that it bears on their aesthetics, and it came later than the writing of most of these tales, but for amusement, here's some of Tolkien's musing on Elvish names: two paragraphs from "Of Naming", a section in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, published in Morgoth's Ring:
The amilessi tercenyë, or mother-names of insight, had a high position, and in general use sometimes replaced, both within the family and without, the father-name and chosen name, though the father-name (and the chosen among those of the Eldar that had the custom of the essecilmë) remained ever after the true or primary name, and a necessary part of any ‘full title’. The ‘names of insight’ were more often given in the early days of the Eldar, and in that time they came more readily into public use, because it was then still the custom for the father-name of a son to be a modification of the father’s name (as Finwë / Curufinwë) or a patronymic (as Finwion ‘son of Finwë’). The father-name of a daughter would likewise often be derived from the name of the mother.
Renowned examples of these things are found in the early histories. Thus Finwë, first lord of the Noldor, first named his eldest son Finwion; but later when his talent was revealed this was modified to Curufinwë. But the name of insight which his mother Míriel gave to him in the hour of birth was Fëanáro ‘Spirit of Fire’;* and by this name he became known to all, and he is so called in all the histories. (It is said that he also took this name as his chosen name, in honour of his mother, whom he never saw.) Elwë, lord of the Teleri, became widely known by the anessë or given name Sindicollo ‘Greycloak’, and hence later, in the changed form of the Sindarin tongue, he was called Elu Thingol. Thingol indeed was the name most used for him by others, though Elu or Elu-thingol remained his right title in his own realm.
*Though the form Fëanor, which is more often used, was a blend of Q Fëanáro and S Faenor.
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We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of the Flight of the Noldor".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 5 2009, 1:08am
Post #5 of 5
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I've been quite enjoying taking a slow-read through this, and your "irregular posting schedule" matches my "irregular reading lack-of-schedule" very well! 
Nothing of my own to add, except for this: I'm having a far greater appreciation and understanding of the Sil than ever before. My thanks, and gratitude!
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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