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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 17 2009, 6:22am
Post #1 of 8
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“Silmarils” & “Darkening” I – “Long was he at work, and slow at first and barren was his labour.”
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At last we turn to this week’s scheduled chapters, “Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor” and “Of the Darkening of Valinor”. This post covers the early paragraphs of the first part of Chapter 7, until Melkor says to Finwë’s younger sons, “It will not be long before he drives you from Túna!” In this section:
Fëanor, desiring to make the Trees’ light “imperishable”, catches it in his greatest work, the silmarils, three jewels that both reflect and emit light, made from an unknown substance stronger than diamond. Everyone is impressed, Varda hallows them, and Mandos announces that the destiny of land, ocean, and sky are “locked within them”. Melkor covets them, which is one more reason he builds dissension between the Valar and Eldar through a slow and subtle campaign of lies which spread “as secrets of which the knowledge proves the teller wise”. Working thus indirectly, he convinces many Noldor that the Valar brought the elves to Aman to control them, and to leave the broader lands of Middle-earth for malleable men, of whose existence the elves had not been told. Fëanor, who will have no truck with Melkor, is ironically the one most moved by the lies. He grows both eager for freedom from the Valar and possessive of his work, especially the silmarils. Melkor then sends hints to Fëanor and Fingolfin that each is plotting against the other.
Questions
If Fëanor created the silmarils, as the text suggests, in response to a premonition of the trees’ end, who sent it to him?
It is “at the end of all” that Fëanor creates the silmarils. Does that mean he made nothing after?
Here we learn that thre Trees will die, that Fëanor will die before the sun is made, and that he will return from death “at the End”, at which time the sun and moon will be destroyed, to reveal the nature of the silmarils. How do you feel about this glimpse of the future? Also, the text says that the sun will “pass” while the moon will “fail” – does that mean they will end in different ways?
The silmarils look like “diamonds” but are stronger than “adamant” – are those two names for the same thing?
How do the inanimate silmarils “rejoice”?
Does Varda actually announce that the “mortal flesh” that touches the silmarils will be “scorched and withered”? If so, why would give them such a power, prejudiced in favor of elves over men? And why doesn’t that happen to Beren? If not, why does the text say that the silmarils will have this effect on mortals? What evidence is there for it in the story?
Does the fate of “earth, sea, and air” as “locked within” the silmarils ever manifest itself in Tolkien’s fiction? Yes, the silmarils end up in those locations, but that seems to show the jewels’ fate, not those of the three elements or places.
Why is Melkor struck particularly hard by sight of the silmarils?
The text offers a maxim: someone who “sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead”. Can truth as easily be sown and reaped? Why or why not?
Is there some underlying anxiety in the Noldor that Melkor is able to manipulate? If so, where would it have led if not compounded by his lies?
We are told that “little have the Valar ever prevailed to sway the wills of Men” – apart from their warning messages to Númenor, when do the Valar try to do so?
Why does Fëanor already dislike Melkor?
Why is Finwë’s second son Fingolfin but not his third son Finarfin described as one of the elvish “high princes”?
Are the Valar in fact, as Melkor says, “ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion”?
Further thoughts on these eight paragraphs?
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We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië" and "Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor" and "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor" and "Of the Darkening of Valinor".
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 17 2009, 10:22am
Post #2 of 8
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If Fëanor created the silmarils, as the text suggests, in response to a premonition of the trees’ end, who sent it to him?
Iluvatar himself? Or was it just his suspicion of Melkor?
It is “at the end of all” that Fëanor creates the silmarils. Does that mean he made nothing after?
Well, he did make the lock at Formenos, and he did forge swords.
But it could be the laxt of his blessed and beneficial works, or last of a series of essays in the craft - like the Eregion smiths made lesser rings (Gandalf, The Shadow of the Past).
Here we learn that thre Trees will die, that Fëanor will die before the sun is made, and that he will return from death “at the End”, at which time the sun and moon will be destroyed, to reveal the nature of the silmarils. How do you feel about this glimpse of the future?
It gives a sense of mystery; and makes one wonder whether Tolkien really planned a Ragnarok to his world, or an Armageddon.
Also, the text says that the sun will “pass” while the moon will “fail” – does that mean they will end in different ways?
Could be; but we haven't got much to go with - not until chapter 11 and the mysterious sentence about the sun heralding the awakening of Men while the moon cherished the memory of Elves, do we get something to bite upon.
The silmarils look like “diamonds” but are stronger than “adamant” – are those two names for the same thing?
I don't think so. Was Nenya a diamond ring? Or Barad-dur a tower of diamond?
How do the inanimate silmarils “rejoice”?
I guess the conceit is that they are not inanimate - but that leads to the curious question how could Feanor sub-create while the greatest Valar couldn't.
Or alternatively, this might be a simile for the 'living fire' within the jewels. I should compare to the Arkenstone, but I'm too lazy.
Does Varda actually announce that the “mortal flesh” that touches the silmarils will be “scorched and withered”?
Yes, I also thought it is a strange phrase. And Beren does not get scorched, and neither does Earendil - and Ulmo never brings his immunity as an argument that Earendil is in fact non-mortal.
If so, why would give them such a power, prejudiced in favor of elves over men? And why doesn’t that happen to Beren?
D'oh! (or d'eaux!) I didn't bother to read your question in full before answeing the previous one!
If not, why does the text say that the silmarils will have this effect on mortals? What evidence is there for it in the story?
None that I can think of. Was Characharoth mortal? But I'm sure the pain even Morgoth bore would explain the Wolf's torment.
Does the fate of “earth, sea, and air” as “locked within” the silmarils ever manifest itself in Tolkien’s fiction? Yes, the silmarils end up in those locations, but that seems to show the jewels’ fate, not those of the three elements or places.
Are you refering to the Second Prophecy of Mandos?
I'm not sure anywhere else - except for Earendil's mission.
Why is Melkor struck particularly hard by sight of the silmarils?
Because they house the scret fire, which he was seeking even before the world was created.
The text offers a maxim: someone who “sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead”. Can truth as easily be sown and reaped? Why or why not?
No. Weeds multiply easier than trees.
(Yes, I know this is not quite an answer)
Is there some underlying anxiety in the Noldor that Melkor is able to manipulate?
I guess so. The desire for sub-creation, and the wish for independence - I'm sure there is.
If so, where would it have led if not compounded by his lies?
They could have asked premission to return to Middle-earth.
We are told that “little have the Valar ever prevailed to sway the wills of Men” – apart from their warning messages to Númenor, when do the Valar try to do so?
Directly? Nowhere that we know of.
Why does Fëanor already dislike Melkor?
He smells a rat.
Why is Finwë’s second son Fingolfin but not his third son Finarfin described as one of the elvish “high princes”?
He is the foil to Feanor. Finarfin is, well, a less formidable person.
Are the Valar in fact, as Melkor says, “ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion”?
Some might be.
And the description of how they react to Feanor's coming without them to the festival next chapter, does raise doubt about them.
Further thoughts on these eight paragraphs?
Did the Valar have any purpose in not telling the Elves about Men? Where they careless? Did they see Men as trifles?
"May no new grief divide us" - Fingolfin.
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batik
Tol Eressea
Sep 18 2009, 11:14pm
Post #3 of 8
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If Fëanor created the silmarils, as the text suggests, in response to a premonition of the trees’ end, who sent it to him?
For no other reason than her previous association with these trees (and others), I suggest Yavanna.
It is “at the end of all” that Fëanor creates the silmarils. Does that mean he made nothing after?
I don't read it that way, rather that the result of *this*labour--the silmarils were made.
Here we learn that thre Trees will die, that Fëanor will die before the sun is made, and that he will return from death “at the End”, at which time the sun and moon will be destroyed, to reveal the nature of the silmarils. How do you feel about this glimpse of the future?
Encourages me to find out more!
Also, the text says that the sun will “pass” while the moon will “fail” – does that mean they will end in different ways?
No idea. Reminds me of a line from a Def Leppard song---"better to burn out, than fade away."
The silmarils look like “diamonds” but are stronger than “adamant” – are those two names for the same thing?
When in doubt, look it up...from Wikipedia
Both adamant and diamond derive from the Greek word (adamas), meaning "untameable".
Does the fate of “earth, sea, and air” as “locked within” the silmarils ever manifest itself in Tolkien’s fiction? Yes, the silmarils end up in those locations, but that seems to show the jewels’ fate, not those of the three elements or places.
Whew! That's a question.
The text offers a maxim: someone who “sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead”. Can truth as easily be sown and reaped? Why or why not?
I don't think so--truth seems so...absolute (?) Kind of like *good*. If lies are everything but the *truth* then it seems as if there would be lot more material to work with--many more seeds to sow, um--so to speak. But I do believe that *truth* will be shown to be the stronger.
Is there some underlying anxiety in the Noldor that Melkor is able to manipulate? If so, where would it have led if not compounded by his lies?
The Noldor do seem much more restless when compared to the Vanyar.
We are told that “little have the Valar ever prevailed to sway the wills of Men” – apart from their warning messages to Númenor, when do the Valar try to do so?
Um--would Gandalf's presence qualify?
Why does Fëanor already dislike Melkor?
Another "alpha" on the block?
(This post was edited by batik on Sep 18 2009, 11:16pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 19 2009, 2:16pm
Post #4 of 8
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If Fëanor created the silmarils, as the text suggests, in response to a premonition of the trees’ end, who sent it to him?
The text tells us that Feanor was "filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him..." (my emphasis).
So I don't think the text "suggests" anything as concrete as a promonition being "sent" at all. After that overly-emphatic denial, at the end of the last chapter, that Feanor ever learned anything from Melkor, I'm inclined to believe that he must have had some dealings with Melkor, even if those dealings led to hate and distrust. And it's not hard to imagine that a few conversations with Melkor might well have sparked an idea in Feanor's brilliant mind that led him to fear for the light of the Trees.
It is “at the end of all” that Fëanor creates the silmarils. Does that mean he made nothing after?
No, it means "the end of all" his "long and secret labour", surely. It doesn't imply anything about afterwards, although there's a clear suggestion that these were his chef d'oeuvre, never to be bettered (by him or anyone else, I suppose).
Here we learn that thre Trees will die, that Fëanor will die before the sun is made, and that he will return from death “at the End”, at which time the sun and moon will be destroyed, to reveal the nature of the silmarils. How do you feel about this glimpse of the future? Also, the text says that the sun will “pass” while the moon will “fail” – does that mean they will end in different ways?
I like this mention of the End of all things - and that it's not quite like our own vision of the Apocalypse. I wonder if it's similar to apocalyptic visions from other mythologies? It certainly reminds me of this verse from the barrow-wight:
"Cold be hand and heart and bone,
and cold be sleep under stone:
never more to wake on stony bed,
never, till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead."
Here, it's the Sun that "fails", whereas in the Sil, it's the Moon. But the idea of separate (but unspecified) ends for Sun and Moon is very similar, I think.
The silmarils look like “diamonds” but are stronger than “adamant” – are those two names for the same thing?
Clearly not to the writer of this history, although from a modern perspective they might be thought so. An online dictionary gives this definition for adamant: "a legendary stone of impenetrable hardness, formerly sometimes identified with the diamond." So I'd say that adamant is something that the chronicler believed in, but that we no longer believe to have existed (but, of course, maybe he was right and we are wrong!)
How do the inanimate silmarils “rejoice”?
They are not inanimate. The chronicle tells us that "as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light..." Shades of Barfield again - things that we would see as inanimate are not so to people for whom the entire world is full of magic and myth.
Does Varda actually announce that the “mortal flesh” that touches the silmarils will be “scorched and withered”? If so, why would give them such a power, prejudiced in favor of elves over men? And why doesn’t that happen to Beren? If not, why does the text say that the silmarils will have this effect on mortals? What evidence is there for it in the story?
Surely Varda can't actually announce this, because there are no mortals at this point - and if I'm remembering correctly, the Valar have not yet admitted to the Elves that they know that mortals will arrive in due course. So her announcement would be a dead giveaway, wouldn't it? 
In fact, the text says that "Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh...might touch them, but it was scorched and withered."
"So that" could mean "in order that', or it could simply mean "with the result that". I'm inclined towards the second. I think Varda simply made the Silmarils too "blessed" to be handled by the unworthy - like Elvish things to Gollum.
It does seem odd that "mortals" are mentioned so specifically here. If this were a "real" myth, I think you'd expect the teller, who knows the rest of the tale (along with most of his audience, most likely), to add something to hint at what's to come - something like "unless he were of purest intention", or even something specifically hinting at Beren himself. I don't know whether Tolkien wrote this before he'd worked out the story of Beren, or whether he knew the rest of the story but made this comment anyway for some reason I can't think of. Or indeed, whether Christopher edited things here - it's frustrating trying to analyze a text when you don't know if you're seeing the text as it was "meant" to be!
Does the fate of “earth, sea, and air” as “locked within” the silmarils ever manifest itself in Tolkien’s fiction? Yes, the silmarils end up in those locations, but that seems to show the jewels’ fate, not those of the three elements or places.
I think that "earth, sea, and air" just means "everything" - omitting the usual fourth, fire, because it seems to be mostly associated with evil when it's in the world. To the extent that the Silmarils become the source of the light of the Sun and Moon, they certainly do have a great bearing on the wellbeing of everything.
Why is Melkor struck particularly hard by sight of the silmarils?
I think sador made the point that he's always been seeking the "secret fire", and now it seems, he's found it - in fact Feanor is described "as if a secret fire were kindled within him" - which seems to explain both Melkor's fascination with Feanor and Feanor's rejection of Melkor.
The text offers a maxim: someone who “sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead”. Can truth as easily be sown and reaped? Why or why not?
Truth is harder to understand, and doesn't tend to appeal to the baser emotions that lies can so easily stir up, since, unlike the truth, they can be manipulated and simplified at will. The current health care debate in the US seems to offer an interesting example of this effect. Or, closer to home for me, the Irish referendum. Complex and difficult ideas are much harder to sell than simplistic scaremongering.
Is there some underlying anxiety in the Noldor that Melkor is able to manipulate? If so, where would it have led if not compounded by his lies?
The Noldor desire knowledge. Just like humans, they hate to be kept in the dark and treated like children. This is yet another reference to the Adam and Eve story, I think. Sooner or later, I expect the Valar would have had to let them "grow up". I can't help thinking of Galadriel's "all shall love me and despair", or Faramir's rejection of Minas Tirith as "a loving mistress of willing slaves". The Noldor, like Men, want the freedom to make their own mistakes.
We are told that “little have the Valar ever prevailed to sway the wills of Men” – apart from their warning messages to Númenor, when do the Valar try to do so?
That's the point, I guess. Men never hear the Valar above the noise of their own desires. How can we know whether the Valar tried or not, if no-one was listening? It reminds me of Arthur Dent's regretful line as he's about to be blown out of an airlock into outer space:
Arthur: "It's at times like this I wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was a boy."
Ford Prefect: "Why, what did she tell you?"
Arthur: "I don't know, I didn't listen!"
Why does Fëanor already dislike Melkor?
He can sense his leering, sweaty-handed desire.
Why is Finwë’s second son Fingolfin but not his third son Finarfin described as one of the elvish “high princes”?
The text says it's because they're the "elder sons of Finwe". Whether this is referring to them as the first son of each mother, or just as the first two sons, I don't know. I like the idea that it's the former.
Are the Valar in fact, as Melkor says, “ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion”?
Why would we believe Melkor, when the text actually tells us that his words are "lies"? Yet the most successful lies usually contain a grain of truth, or at least, something that the victims of the lies will find plausible and disturbing. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Valar are worried about this turn of events. Things are starting to get out of hand!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Sep 19 2009, 2:20pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 19 2009, 3:31pm
Post #5 of 8
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Doesn't "*as* they were indeed living things"
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...mean that the silmarils are not living things, but merely act as if they were?
Also:
To the extent that the Silmarils become the source of the light of the Sun and Moon, they certainly do have a great bearing on the wellbeing of everything.
They don't. The Trees are the source of the light both of the silmarils and of the sun and moon.
Men never hear the Valar above the noise of their own desires.
But shouldn't Tolkien give us more evidence of this? Maybe it's elvish slander against men.
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We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor" and "Of the Darkening of Valinor".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 19 2009, 4:13pm
Post #6 of 8
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"As were they indeed living things..." is the way it's written in my version. What does that mean?
I took it to mean "because they were indeed living things...", but perhaps it means, as you suggest, "as if they were living things". I was influenced by the sentences before this, where we have both a comparison of the Silmarils to a living body, and a reference to the light "which lives in them yet." But the actual expression seems very elliptical and ambiguous, now you come to mention it.
But in the end, the difference is small. Either this is an expression of a natural, holistic, Barfield-style metaphor, or, if the Silmarils are just being described "as if" they are living, then we are left with an ordinary metaphor about "joyful" light - a mere figure of speech, but perfectly adequate in any case to explain the use of the word "rejoiced", I think.
They don't. The Trees are the source of the light both of the silmarils and of the sun and moon.
Thank you for the correction! As I mentioned earlier, I am reading the Sil essentially for the first time, so I genuinely don't know what's coming up! Which means I really can't answer your question at all, since it's asking about future events that I haven't read yet.
Men never hear the Valar above the noise of their own desires. But shouldn't Tolkien give us more evidence of this? Maybe it's elvish slander against men.
Why should Tolkien tell us things beyond what his "chronicler" tells us? All we know about the Valar at all is what we are told through Elvish legends. As I read it, there is no "evidence" of anything - this is all mythology, to be taken on faith alone. I agree that this may be Elvish slander against Men - certainly we get the impression that the Elves think Men are much too quick to follow their own impulses. And the way they would express this is probably to say that Men don't listen to the the voice of wisdom, the voice of Higher Powers, that speaks within them.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Sep 19 2009, 4:14pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Sep 20 2009, 5:25am
Post #7 of 8
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My book also has "as were they" rather than "as they were" -- apparently I transposed it as I typed. While I still take "as were they" to mean "as if they were", now I see what you mean about the possibility of it meaning, "because they were". Glad we failed to clear that up!
Why should Tolkien tell us things beyond what his "chronicler" tells us?
Well, the chronicler is inconsistent, if here he tells us that men regularly disregard the council of the Valar, but in the rest of the book we see only one example of them doing so.
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We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor" and "Of the Darkening of Valinor".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 20 2009, 12:19pm
Post #8 of 8
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I see what you're getting at now.
Well, the chronicler is inconsistent, if here he tells us that men regularly disregard the council of the Valar, but in the rest of the book we see only one example of them doing so.
Assuming that the same chronicler is responsible for this entire body of work (although that's not necessarily the case), you would have expected him to give some examples that back up this opinion, if it really is more than Elvish prejudice.
On the other hand, re-reading the sentence more carefully, I see that the chronicler isn't actually claiming that the Valar tried and failed to influence Men - his point is just about the Elves' fear that the Valar might try to influence Men, to the Elves' detriment. The lies of Melkor were claiming that the Valar might favour Men because these "weaker" creatures could be more easily controlled to behave as the Valar wanted. All the "evidence" he needs to show is that, as things turned out, Men have not been very much influenced by the Valar at all - whether or not the Valar even tried is beside the point. I imagine that, by the time this chronicle was written down, all Elves were convinced (with good reason!) that Men were hardly the well-behaved puppets that this scaremongering had suggested.
(About the first point, on reflection, I think your interpretation of "as were they" is most likely correct. Since "were they" = "if they were", so "as were they" should mean "as if they were". I think we should blame Bilbo for this awkward translation... )
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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