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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
"On the Doorstep" free-for-all: What just happened?
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Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 8 2009, 9:58pm

Post #26 of 36 (195 views)
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I'm talking about Moria. [In reply to] Can't Post

In response to a question about similar moments in LOTR.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 8 2009, 9:59pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 10:07pm

Post #27 of 36 (155 views)
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Oh, sorry. I missed the "compare and contrast" bit... // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 10:22pm

Post #28 of 36 (192 views)
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Michael Drout might call it "diagnostically Curiousian". [In reply to] Can't Post

Curiouish? Curiouk? Anyway:


Quote
When Denethor finally descends into madness and attempts to burn himself and Faramir alive, he orders his servants (hitherto blocked by Beregond at the door of the tombs) to bring him a torch: "'Come hither!' he cried to his servants. 'Come, if you are not all recreant!'" (RK, V, vii, 130). Similarly Lear calls Kent "recreant" after Kent has criticized Lear's treatment of Cordelia (I, i,170). "Recreant" is an unusual word even in such similar contexts. While it appears in Chaucer, Malory, and also in Shakespeare's Henry VI part II, the OED lists no uses after 1897. I have been unable to find it anywhere else in Tolkien's corpus of writings, suggesting that, although it is an anachronistic word, it is not a diagnostically Tolkienian anachronism (such as "pale" used as to describe a jewel or light, "fell" used both as an adjective and a noun, or, perhaps the infamous "eyot"). Thus its use bespeaks a connection with (although it does not prove a definite source in) Lear that is not contradicted by further parallels.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!

Join us June 8-14 for "Inside Information".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.

(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Jun 8 2009, 10:25pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 10:30pm

Post #29 of 36 (163 views)
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I don't think we know that yet. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Has anybody mentioned already that we've already been told that the men of Dale used to talk to thrushes and know their language?



It's in the next chapter (i.e. the one gramma has just started today). It's Thorin who says to Bilbo: "...this is a very old bird indeed, and is maybe the last left of the ancient breed that used to live about here, tame to the hands of my father and grandfather. They were a long-lived and magical race, and this might even be one of those that were alive then, a couple of hundreds of years or more ago. The Men of Dale used to have the trick of understanding their language, and used them for messengers to fly to the Men of the Lake and elsewhere."

So it's only well after the riddle of the door is solved that we learn that there's more about the thrush than meets the eye.

(I'm finding my new ebook version of The Hobbit very handy for stuff like this - all I had to do was search on the word "thrush" to check this out.)

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 11:23pm

Post #30 of 36 (160 views)
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My mistake [In reply to] Can't Post

I lost track of where we were, exactly, in the book, when I went to San Diego last week.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 9 2009, 10:13am

Post #31 of 36 (152 views)
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So that's where you were. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I lost track of where we were, exactly, in the book, when I went to San Diego last week.



I missed you, but didn't know where you were. Maybe I missed a post where you told us - I was away the previous week myself, so I'm trying to make up for it now...


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 9 2009, 10:25am

Post #32 of 36 (177 views)
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Comparing and contrasting.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I missed this question earlier, but there were a couple of things in LotR that it reminded me of that I don't think have been mentioned.


In Reply To
Compare and contrast, if you will, this magical moment ...


The behaviour of that new moon reminds me of the new moon Sam sees from the Great River. He too uses the appearance of the new moon to figure out the calendar - and it's the new moon that makes him first realize that time has flowed differently in Lorien.

And the setting sun producing one ray of light as it pierces the clouds, and highlighting a special object, reminds me of the sun that falls on the head of the fallen King at the Crossroads.

I often think there's something magical about these moments in the natural world (my avatar picture was taken as the setting sun pierced the clouds and lit up the boats in the harbour for a fleeting moment one evening, a moment that really did feel magical at the time). You really don't need to invoke any fantasy magic when you have the sun and moon to work with!

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 9 2009, 2:01pm

Post #33 of 36 (150 views)
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Nice! [In reply to] Can't Post

But of course the sun falling on the crown of flowers at the crossroads is a more subtle moment than the sun opening the lock on Durin's Day in The Hobbit. It's every bit as magical, I agree, but far easier to dismiss as mere coincidence -- unless one traces every appearance of the Sun and Moon and every shift in the wind in LotR, and realizes that there is a pattern to the weather, a pattern which in some ways is less subtle than this one isolated moment in The Hobbit, although harder to discern.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 9 2009, 5:55pm

Post #34 of 36 (149 views)
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I didn't say. Sorry. [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't tell anyone I was going to San Diego, because I can't keep up with the Fiesta Friday thread. It's so long that I can't always read the whole thing, and so I feel ashamed to post on it when I'm not giving due attention to what everyone else has to say.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 9 2009, 9:30pm

Post #35 of 36 (148 views)
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I didn't mean [In reply to] Can't Post

that you should have said... Sorry if I made it sound that way. I just thought you might have mentioned something in one of your posts here that I'd missed when I was away myself (which I also didn't mention at Fiesta, by the way - I feel much the same as you, it's hard to keep up every week and it doesn't seem right to go just when you have something to say about yourself....)

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 11 2009, 12:26am

Post #36 of 36 (368 views)
Shortcut
Thanks for missing me. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!

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