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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: Off Topic:
“Mission: Equality – starring Barbie”
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squire
Valinor


Mar 15 2009, 3:15pm

Post #51 of 58 (62 views)
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Quantitative equality [In reply to] Can't Post

I found it most interesting that Sweden explicitly set as its goal that gender equality should not just be of opportunity ("qualitative"), but also of result ("quantitative"). But seemingly, when opportunity is equal, through legal and public removal of all sex discrimination, the result remains unequal. With real freedom of choice, more women than men devote themselves to child care and family matters. They take part time jobs to allow themselves to do so. Because they have less income, they have less influence on a family's big decisions, such as asking the man to "pitch in" a bit more at the expense of his professional advancement. And studies show that many, if not most, women are comfortable with this arrangement, finding fulfillment in helping others rather than advancing their own careers.

As I understood all this, and so wrote it up, Sweden's Social Democrats find this very frustrating. Ideally, to them, about 50% of Swedish families should have dads at home full time with the kids, and about 50% of corporate CEOs should be female. Until they reach these goals, Sweden's leaders do not feel they have achieved gender equality. Yet their pro-feminist ideology and government laws are the envy of feminists around the world!*

*Sweden is high, but not alone, on the spectrum of countries that seriously facilitate women's rights with effective public policy; much of western Europe has similar legislation, for instance.



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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Mar 15 2009, 7:37pm

Post #52 of 58 (56 views)
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Just for clarification, [In reply to] Can't Post

and Hi, ge_o, I remember you!

Anyway, Mr. Eruvande made that comment in passing to me. No one was about to be laid off. But it still made me stop and wonder if she was in her job because she was most qualified, or was it because of her age or what was in her undies.

I have a friend who (seriously) will not go to a doctor who is not a white man. He says he wants the best doctor out there and doesn't want to worry if a woman or a minority got into medical school based on a quota to be filled. He figures if the white man was smart enough to make it into medical school despite quotas, he must be pretty good. I'm not in any way endorsing this, just putting it out there as an example. But really, if we do have quotas like that, does anyone who is a woman want to be suspected of her qualifications? It seems like it is placing more of a burden on women. People think, well, she may be a manager, but did she get hired because she's smart, or because she's a woman? Seems like it's still forcing women to work twice as hard to prove themselves.



And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame.



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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Mar 15 2009, 7:45pm

Post #53 of 58 (48 views)
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I've heard that too. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I've never been a mom working outside the home.
And I don't mean to say that women who work outside the home are "bad", or whatever.
The women I don't appreciate are those who dump off their kids in order to chase some material wealth. The ones trying to keep up with the Joneses. More is never enough for them. I fully understand the need for two incomes. But I have a problem with people who continuously live beyond their means and can't seem to be bothered to raise their kids.
In my experience, the moms who have jobs outside the home who were snotty to me, were experiencing a bit of guilt. It's just a vibe I got.



And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame.



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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 15 2009, 11:09pm

Post #54 of 58 (48 views)
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The reason for that [In reply to] Can't Post

...vibe of guilt you detect, that some mothers who also work outside the home feel (and then react by directing snottiness at you, who does not work outside the home) probably is a result of our culture as yet still frowning more at mothers who work outside the home than at fathers who do so.

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Aerin
Grey Havens


Mar 16 2009, 4:41am

Post #55 of 58 (41 views)
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But we don't actually have quotas. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just sincere encouragement to give women a chance. For myself, I much prefer female doctors. I used to teach pre-meds.

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Aerin
Grey Havens


Mar 16 2009, 4:42am

Post #56 of 58 (36 views)
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LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

Never heard that one, but I'll probably repeat it!

Hobbit Family Histories


Aerin
Grey Havens


Mar 16 2009, 4:50am

Post #57 of 58 (44 views)
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Interestingly, academics also refer to the US as practicing "state feminism." [In reply to] Can't Post

I did a little Googling on the term, and pretty much any country that has any legislation about equal opportunity for women earns that label.

That was a digression, but to respond to your point, I do think numerical targets of 50% for everything are unrealistic. But since these are not actually "enforced," I don't think men's rights are being trampled on. IMHO, it all comes down to making it possible for *individuals* to pursue their own goals without discrimination on the basis of gender. And until we do this, we have no real way of knowing which fields in which women now are a minority will eventually end up with a 50-50 split or even a female majority.

Hobbit Family Histories


Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Mar 16 2009, 8:21pm

Post #58 of 58 (78 views)
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Maybe not "official" quotas, [In reply to] Can't Post

but in the example of my husband's employer, the company culture is hyper sensitive about things like that.

And there is definitely the "affirmative action" aspect with regard to racial differences in higher education as well as the workplace.

I, too, prefer female doctors. I find them more willing to actually listen to me than the male doctors I've gone to. I also find them less condescending than their male counterparts. Could that be because men and women are different, perhaps? Not unequally qualified, just different.



And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame.



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