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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Saruman as Gandalf's mentor in Film 1 and as Head of the Council at Film 2

Michael X
Bree


Oct 5 2008, 1:47pm

Post #1 of 12 (358 views)
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Saruman as Gandalf's mentor in Film 1 and as Head of the Council at Film 2 Can't Post

In the Fellowship of the Ring, (the movie) one of the first things Gandalf does is going to inform Saruman of the situation "He's both wise and powerful.He'll know what to do." Throughout FOTR, Saruman is talking to Gandalf in his mind and it is clear Gandalf can hear him (see Pass of Caradras). This seems like an old habit for the two wizards and it is a known ability for the White Council members. The concept that is given for Saruman in the trilogy, is that he is falling, and his might diminishing (with the peak of that concept in the broken staff and Saruman's fall from the Pinnacle of Orthanc).
It is a common idea that the grace and enormous might of Saruman the White must be shown in the two Hobbit movies.
I think that Saruman could appear as Gandalf's mentor, talking in his mind and aiding him with what is ahead, while, at the same time, supervising his mission and trying to learn as much as he can. Tolkien gives a clear impression that, even if Saruman despises the Hobbits, he fears the importance they may have, and later visits the Shire a number of times, having a clue that the Ring might be there. If Saruman stays in (a nice,green, forested) Isengard, in his tower, reading books and seeing things via Palantir (without Gandalf knowing), then C.Lee does not need to move from London either, as they'll only meet in mind. That is a way to display the huge importance Saruman had for all of Middle-Earth, even if very few knew it and at the same time displaying the Saruman-Gandalf friendly relation that is shown in FOTR, as well as Gandalf's surprise. Now, about why Saruman is not "advising" Gandalf in the TTT?? Because Saruman has fallen enough that Gandalf is stronger than him, and he can't accept that.
About Film 2 of the Hobbit, there will most probably be 2 major battles: the battle of the 5 armies, and the siege of Dol-Guldur. These could be shown as parallel Good vs Evil battles. It is clear from Tolkien that Saruman "won" the battle of Dol-Guldur. Gandalf (almost) says that "It was because of Saruman's devices that we got the Necromancer out of there". Now, a device should appear, that is different from the mine of Helm's Deep, and that is not used on Helm's Deep, so that the devices used at Helm's Deep were actually surprises. But why not using it on Helm's Deep if it exists? Because it wouldn't work on stone. Now, the concept of Dol-Guldur through movies, books and Games is that of a Fortress made of iron. So, "electrio-magnetic" devices could be used to tear down wall parts and overcharge the fortress (remember, Saruman's devices are always a surprise). Also, to show his power and grace, Saruman should be leading the army to Dol-Guldur and actually orchestrating his very devices with his own power. Thus, Saruman could be a very good guy and the surprise in FOTR greater. Also, in Film 2, Saruman's good relations with the Good must be shown to further increase the surprise, for exemple, the Dunedain Rangers that use Isengard as a base.
These have been my thoughts so far to help meet C.Lee's requirements (staying in London as much possible) and the community's will (that Saruman is in both movies), to show Saruman's grace, Saruman-Gandalf relation, and give a continuity to the 5 films...

One ill turn deserves another! It is over!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 7:07pm

Post #2 of 12 (255 views)
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something along those lines [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson and Del Toro said they want to bring Saruman back but I just posted a thread where Christopher Lee stated that because of his age he will not fly out to New Zealand but that doesn't mean they won't fly to London and shoot his scenes there. Christopher Lee really looks the part because of his age, which is a good thing not a bad thing. Christopher Lee also stated in the same interview that he is still upset Jackson cut his death scene out in ROTK, I still can't believe he did that. -Same with the mouth of sauron, if anything he should have cut the end scenes out.



(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Oct 5 2008, 7:11pm)


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 10:10pm

Post #3 of 12 (209 views)
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Some disagreements [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman has no business in The Hobbit movie. He is important for F2. I don't think it is a common idea that Saruman should be part of the Hobbit. In fact, I think it's a very unpopular idea to change the Hobbit at all.
The battle of the five armies is in The Hobbit.
If there is a big battle in F2 at all (which I don't think is necessary), it would probably be the fight for Moria.
Dol Guldur is in F2 if they decide to go for it (they probably will). What siege? Gandalf was overruled by Saruman when suggested an attack on Dol Guldur. When Saruman agreed during the next meeting, Sauron had already made his plans and left Dol Guldur. Did I miss this siege?
I don't think Tolkien meant dynamite or any physical devices when he was speaking about the Necromancer out of Dol Guldur.
Saruman hasn't been and is not a mentor of Gandalf. Saruman was The White, Head of the White Council at the time and for this reason he was sought for advice. I truly hope they won't turn him into a mentor of any Maia.
Saruman didn't lose power falling. Gandalf gained power coming back from the darkness. (Or may be was given more power being sent to finish his task. Or may be was just given back his own power he had in the West.)
The Rangers using Isengard as a base is a little too much for me, thank you.

I'm very much open to a script which includes some free writing but not to ignoring the Appendices and Tolkien's mind at all. After all, this is Tolkien's world. Anyone can create their own if they like it better.

Culinary journey through Middle Earth starting October 15 on the Main board

I believe


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 6 2008, 12:01am

Post #4 of 12 (201 views)
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WHAT IF [In reply to] Can't Post

What if F2 is in these three parts, first part Dol Guldur/White Council, second part Aragorn and Gandalf tracking gollum, third part Dwarves battle in Moria/awakening of the Balrog?



Michael X
Bree


Oct 6 2008, 7:49pm

Post #5 of 12 (166 views)
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Ok [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Saruman has no business in The Hobbit movie. He is important for F2. I don't think it is a common idea that Saruman should be part of the Hobbit. In fact, I think it's a very unpopular idea to change the Hobbit at all.
The battle of the five armies is in The Hobbit.
If there is a big battle in F2 at all (which I don't think is necessary), it would probably be the fight for Moria.
Dol Guldur is in F2 if they decide to go for it (they probably will). What siege? Gandalf was overruled by Saruman when suggested an attack on Dol Guldur. When Saruman agreed during the next meeting, Sauron had already made his plans and left Dol Guldur. Did I miss this siege?
I don't think Tolkien meant dynamite or any physical devices when he was speaking about the Necromancer out of Dol Guldur.
Saruman hasn't been and is not a mentor of Gandalf. Saruman was The White, Head of the White Council at the time and for this reason he was sought for advice. I truly hope they won't turn him into a mentor of any Maia.
Saruman didn't lose power falling. Gandalf gained power coming back from the darkness. (Or may be was given more power being sent to finish his task. Or may be was just given back his own power he had in the West.)
The Rangers using Isengard as a base is a little too much for me, thank you.

I'm very much open to a script which includes some free writing but not to ignoring the Appendices and Tolkien's mind at all. After all, this is Tolkien's world. Anyone can create their own if they like it better.




I do not disagree with you. However, to create and maintain a continuity with the LOTR film trilogy, some things that were changed in the trilogy have to be changed in the 2 Hobbit movies as well. My idea was based on the impression we get from FOTR, of the good Saruman-Gandalf relation. It is at least my impression from FOTR that they have "mental" discussions (something we know from the books) and also that Gandalf consults Saruman for the most imporant issues. Also, I think that Saruman agreed to attack Dol Guldur when the Necromancer's armies (the Orcs) had gain much territory aorund Anduin, rapidly expanding, posing a threat. I think that the Necromancer was forced to move to Mordor after a battle in Doll Guldur (for which G stated that "it was with Saruman's devices that we got him out of there"). Because the mine (powder) was used in TTT, something should be in F2 as well. The Hobbit Film is surely based on the book(s), but it will also be based in the movies to create a continuity, and a lot of things have to be changed to do that.

(The Rangers were an example! Say the relation of S with Rohan or the Ents instead.)

One ill turn deserves another! It is over!


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 7 2008, 4:21am

Post #6 of 12 (151 views)
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The Hobbit should not be changed at all [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I don't support your idea of "continuity". I strongly disagree that anything "has to be changed". To me it will be enough if the visual identity is kept as in LOTR - the Shire, Rivendell, style in costumes, style in races' looks, etc. Besides, there will be enough continuity since part of the same characters will play in F2. Anything else sounds to me pretty bad. I know I'm a heretic when it comes to Aragorn for example but I've always thought of using the Appendices and not just change things. There is enough material for even F3 in the Appendices.

I'm veru unsure about this battle and Dol Guldur. I don't recall anything more than what I quoted above. And as I said, Gandalf didn't mean any guns, powders or weapons by "devices". Wizards were powerful enough to use their mind as a terrible weapon. Probably the most terrible.

Culinary journey through Middle Earth starting October 15 on the Main board

I believe


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 7 2008, 8:51am

Post #7 of 12 (170 views)
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Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher Lee said he won't be part of The Hobbit since Saurman isn't part of The Hobbit but he said he would be open for F2. So it looks like PJ will have to write in the White Council in F2, possibly filling in the blanks for Gandalf's absence in The Hobbit. Almost like Bourne Identity 3 which took place during Bourne Identity 2.




(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Oct 7 2008, 8:54am)


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 7 2008, 5:10pm

Post #8 of 12 (133 views)
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I'm talking about some battle in Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

and not about the White Council. The former is something I have never read about in Tolkien's books and the latter is of course certain.

Culinary journey through Middle Earth starting October 15 on the Main board

I believe


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2008, 12:53am

Post #9 of 12 (123 views)
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yes but [In reply to] Can't Post

poetic license? they did a good job on the alternate Saruman confrontation which PJ cut out?!




Michael X
Bree


Oct 9 2008, 9:21pm

Post #10 of 12 (112 views)
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Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

Check out the Silmarillion: "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" for example, where the attack on Dol Guldur and Sauron's fake retreat are clear.

One ill turn deserves another! It is over!


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 9 2008, 10:13pm

Post #11 of 12 (115 views)
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I'm in the middle of it, thanks for the reference // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Culinary journey through Middle Earth starting October 15 on the Main board

I believe


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Oct 13 2008, 3:47am

Post #12 of 12 (159 views)
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Well I am eager for the return of Saruman, and Mr. Lee, and long for the White Coucil [In reply to] Can't Post

And for scenes involving all its Known members, and I especially hope to see Glorfindel (again, the Elf standing behind Elrond in the Minas Tirith wedding sequence. That IS Glorfindel).

I look forward to the Siege of Dol Guldur, in which some of Saruman's devices were used, but also the connatural magic of the Wizards. One thing I very much hope Del Toro will do more of than Jackson did is allowing Gandalf to display his magical talents. Tolkien did not overdo it, but he certainly made it clear that Gandalf could blast the roof of a place in a pinch, in a brillatine flash of blue flame and lightning, and he did not need powders to do it. I think Jackson did some Disservice to The Gray Wanderer, and I hope the Hobbit films make up for it, right down to finding an equivalent of Gandalf's battle with the Nine atop Amon Sul.

I will also add my agreement that Gandalf never was a pupil of Saruman. It was not a master and padawan relationship. They came into Middle Earth at around the same time, but they did not come together, and very little of Gandalf's lore, save some information on the Rings of Power, and certainly none of his magical knowledge came from Saruman. Indeed, Galadriel explicitly stated that she had asked that Gandalf head The Council of The Wise, though he refused, and Cirdan entrusted his Elf Ring to The Gray messenger, in whom he perceived the greater wisdom and power. Indeed, these things factored heavily into Saruman's budding ill will and jealousy towards his kinsman. . . kinsWizard. . .kinsAngel. . . you understand.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

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