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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Necromancer (Sauron) unaware Bilbo had the ring in Mirkwood?
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 3:58am

Post #26 of 43 (262 views)
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haha [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope that was pure sarcasm.



Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Oct 5 2008, 4:11am

Post #27 of 43 (257 views)
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It wasn't sarcasm. [In reply to] Can't Post

From LotR; The Council of Elrond:
"Not through lack of watchfulness," said Legolas, "but perhaps through over-kindliness" .... "But Gandalf bade us hope still for his cure, and we had not the heart to keep him ever in dungeons under the earth, where he would fall back into his old black thoughts."

and the paragraph just above what you quoted:

"In the days of fair weather we led Gollum through the woods; and there was a high tree standing alone far from the others which he liked to clime. Often we let him mount up to the highest branches, until he felt the free wind; but we set a guard at the tree's foot. One day he refused to come down, and the guards had no mind to climb after him: he had learned the trick of clinging to boughs wiith his feet as well as with his hands; so they sat by the tree far into the night."



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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 5:18am

Post #28 of 43 (272 views)
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wow [In reply to] Can't Post

I seriously thought you were being sarcastic! and that makes sense too. Did all this happen before Gandalf visited Bilbo after 60 years?



(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Oct 5 2008, 5:19am)


Elizabeth
Valinor


Oct 5 2008, 8:29am

Post #29 of 43 (239 views)
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It wasn't *that* Ring in The Hobbit. [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo's ring in The Hobbit was just a clever plot device to enable him to be invisible at critical times. It was only as LotR developed, many years later, that Tolkien conceived of Bilbo's ring as The One and made it the central "McGuffin" (to use Alfred Hitchcock's term) in that book.

That's but one of many little challenges to the new Hobbit movie.





Spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
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Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 5 2008, 6:43pm

Post #30 of 43 (230 views)
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I realise [In reply to] Can't Post

that's the true answer. What I'm trying to do is make the two Rings fit within the milieu of the books.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Oct 5 2008, 9:11pm

Post #31 of 43 (223 views)
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They fit pretty well in the books. [In reply to] Can't Post

In "The Choices of Master Samwise" and "The Tower of Cirith Ungol", Sam wears the Ring safely less than 100 miles from Barad-dūr. In "Flies and Spiders", Bilbo is more than twice that far from Dol Guldur. Additionally, Mirkwood isn't Sauron's domain in the same way that Mordor is.

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Woodyend
Gondor


Oct 5 2008, 9:36pm

Post #32 of 43 (256 views)
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So what's the explanation for Sam..... [In reply to] Can't Post

being able to wear the ring without Sauron sensing it? Was it because he was using all his abilities looking further away, and not up close?

May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 10:12pm

Post #33 of 43 (231 views)
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Sauron is easily distracted [In reply to] Can't Post

It shows clearly in the Hobbit and now in LOTR. When he has other concerns he can't manage to track the Ring. That's what the Nazgul are for Cool Concentration disorder.

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I believe


xxxyyy
Rohan

Oct 6 2008, 12:38am

Post #34 of 43 (213 views)
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That's the biggest problem in the book, fixed in the movies. [In reply to] Can't Post

And, please, don't tell me that Sam is like a small animal...using the power of the Ring only as a "side effect".
That's embarrassingly insulting to one of the best character ever created in the history of literature.
Sam is using efficently the Ring; he also has visions of him becoming the new Dark Lord.
All the nine Nazguls (or eight... can't remember if the Wich King was already dead) should have flown immediatly to Cirith Ungol as soon as he put it on.
Anyway, there's no problem in the Hobbit, book and movie.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Oct 6 2008, 1:37am

Post #35 of 43 (210 views)
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No explanation necessary: that's just how the Ring works. [In reply to] Can't Post

The movies have caused some confusion on this point. Sauron does not have the ability to sense when someone is wearing the Ring, except apparently (1) within Mordor, as Sam realizes as he crests the pass of Cirith Ungol; and (2) with magical amplification, as when Frodo wears the Ring on the Seat of Seeing. In that second case, it's not certain that Sauron senses the Ring, or just something that draws his attention.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Oct 6 2008, 1:44am

Post #36 of 43 (213 views)
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Sam *is* like a small animal. Tolkien says so. [In reply to] Can't Post

But that has nothing to do with the Ring:

Quote
Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts; where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.



As for Sam's fantasies, they're not of "him becoming the new Dark Lord" but of being the "Hero of the Age". He's not wearing the Ring when he has these fantasies. And Tolkien never writes that a character who fantasizes about using the power of the Ring will automatically draw the attention of the Nazgūl.

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JesusFreakForReal
The Shire

Oct 6 2008, 2:38am

Post #37 of 43 (197 views)
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Good stuff [In reply to] Can't Post

It is these details that gives me more reason to re-read the Hobbit and LOTR this fall as I am planning to do! Man, you forget so much when you don't read them for a long time.


Henoluin Elsilim
Rivendell


Oct 6 2008, 9:37pm

Post #38 of 43 (205 views)
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My theory... [In reply to] Can't Post

Last night it took me three hours of deep thought and some flipping through the books to give my answer to this (very good) question, and here is what I got:

Sauron did not see Bilbo using the ring in Mirkwood because he can only sense the Ring when it is in/around an area he is specifically searching. For example, he was able to sense Frodo wearing the Ring in Hobbiton and Bree and such places because he was looking for it in and around those places (mostly the Shire) thanks to the information from Gollum. And (as I've seen the question of why he didn't see Sam while he was wearing the Ring in Cirith Ungol) my thought on that was this: Again, as he wasn't looking for the Ring in/around Cirith Ungol, he didn't see Sam using it. As he thought that the pass was completely safe since there was no way anyone could possibly make it past Shelob (ha! Sam showed him!), he felt no reason to watch the area and therefore missed his chance to get the Ring.

And since something was also said about why the Nazgul didn't come after Sam while he used the Ring in Cirith Ungol, I thought I might as well give my theory for that one too.
My thought was that the Nazgul can only see/sense when someone uses the Ring and enters the shadow realm if they are nearby when the person puts on the Ring. For example, every time they sensed or saw Frodo they were in the nearby vicinity. In Bree, in the Shire, and of course they were right there on Weathertop. Whereas they didn't suddenly show up when Frodo briefly wore the Ring while on Amon Hen. So maybe distance effects their ability to track whoever is wearing the Ring, which is why they didn't come after Sam in Cirith Ungol.

:D

~ Henoluin ~


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 7 2008, 1:43am

Post #39 of 43 (191 views)
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shelob [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe 'She'lob is a she. Are the spiders in Mirkwood related to Shelob?




N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Oct 7 2008, 1:43am

Post #40 of 43 (172 views)
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Sauron could not sense the Ring in Hobbiton or Bree. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the books. (I can't speak to the movies.) He can't even see that far.

The Nazgūl can sense the Ring at short distances, and more vaguely can detect its trail if it moves.

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xy
Rohan

Oct 7 2008, 6:36pm

Post #41 of 43 (168 views)
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he was [In reply to] Can't Post

...busy hiding from the Council and buying & moving in Mordor.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Oct 7 2008, 10:15pm

Post #42 of 43 (149 views)
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The Mirkwood spiders are descended from Shelob. [In reply to] Can't Post

And yes, Shelob is female. Her name is English: "lob" means spider.

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Henoluin Elsilim
Rivendell


Oct 7 2008, 10:18pm

Post #43 of 43 (202 views)
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In reply to 'shelob' by MouthofSauron [In reply to] Can't Post

When I said "Ha! Sam fooled him!" I meant that Sam fooled Sauron, not Shelob, by beating Shelob when Sauron thought that it was impossible. Smile

~ Henoluin ~

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