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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What should be included in F2?
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Eruwestial37
Rohan

Oct 4 2008, 9:29pm

Post #26 of 46 (225 views)
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You said it! [In reply to] Can't Post

Every time I watch the films I want more of them. More details, more story, more everything.
It really isn't too heretical to suggest that these folks were doing things in the years between TH and FotR. Why wouldn't they be combating the Shadow? And if they were, then I want to see them out there doing it!Sly

Might I even suggest that a certain Mirkwook Elf accompany Aragorn and Gandalf in their quest for Gollum? Not only would it give us more of a 'fellowship' but it would help tie in Thranduil to the conclusion of the chase. As it stands, it's not well established in the books why they gave Gollum to Thranduil's Elves, is it?

Oooh I get shivers whenever I think of these films.

And an F3 does make perfect sense!

Eruwestial
Wishing the next 3 years would hurry by


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 4 2008, 10:30pm

Post #27 of 46 (188 views)
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good thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

at first I didn't like the idea of them inventing another story but you know there was quite a large time gap between the two so why not? that is if they do it right of course. I think its a must to show us the White Council combating the Necromancer, they could easily say twenty years later to show the dwarves awakening the balrog/Gandalf and Aragorn teaming up.



Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Oct 4 2008, 10:53pm

Post #28 of 46 (191 views)
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The question for me is... [In reply to] Can't Post

Am I interested in seeing a storyline that touches on as many characters as possible but doesn't necessarily advance any sort of dramatic plot? Or am I interested in watching a dramatic story that doesn't necessarily touch on most of the characters we've met? Each one has it's benefits, but I'm more interested in the story than in the characters.

I've seen the shortest of short stories adapted into good full-fledged movies. I've also seen them adapted into terrible movies, but that's not my point. Tongue IMHO, the attack on Dul Goldor and the White Council is the best story we have that ties both movies together (counting LOTR as one movie). The story of Aragorn would work as well, but doesn't do anything to tie in The Hobbit unless he tracks Gollum, and that's not really a good story considering that he never finds Gollum. Combining the two through Gandalf could work or it could be terrible, depending on what they try to do with it. Each story (or both really) can easily include 3 members of the Fellowship. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Legolas (though I'm not advocating Leggy's inclusion). I don't care if they include Gimli or Balin or Frodo. The more plots they try to include, the more diluted the story gets. I don't think there's any need for more stories. Just my opinion, of course. Tell a good story and keep it somewhat close to Tolkien, and I'm happy.

I don't consider myself a purist; I just want to see a great movie and I've seen too many bad ones come about because the filmmaker is trying to tell too many stories.

In the end, I'm more than willing to leave the story-telling to GdT and PJ since I think they have a good idea in mind and I don't know what it is. I just don't want to see a series of vignettes telling the stories of the 9 walkers and (presumably) as many of Thorin's company as they can. It's not an interesting story to me, I'll look it up in the books or on Wikipedia if I'm interested. And it's not a profitable story to the casual audience.



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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 4 2008, 11:45pm

Post #29 of 46 (209 views)
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two films [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure The Hobbit will end just like the book did however the second one will leave off sometime after, I hope they don't split The Hobbit into two films. If they can cover the first three into one film each then they can do the same with The Hobbit.



simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 1:11am

Post #30 of 46 (175 views)
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I want more too [In reply to] Can't Post

but I'm trying to work it out into something nice. I keep reading te Appendix and there are too many things I want to see Crazy

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simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 1:20am

Post #31 of 46 (176 views)
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I agree with you [In reply to] Can't Post

on the number of stories. Originally (before the heretic army was formed Tongue ) we started dicussing the Appendix and what they could include in F2 to develop a nice story. I will vote for the White Council/Dol Guldur part because it is very important and sets the stage for following events. I will also vote for the Gandalf/Aragorn friendship because one day these movies will be seen before LOTR and I think Gandalf had a very strong impact on Aragorn to become who he was. Same with the Elrond/Aragorn relations but I can see them just like a few short scenes. I will also vote for the Aragorn's hunt for Gollum although he didn't catch it but I'd like to see it from a cinematographical point of view. I would very much like to see more Rangers surrounding and secretly gurading the Shire - I can picture the darkness in the forest where they wait.

It seems that in "my" F2 there is mainly the Gandalf/Aragorn line which of course includes other people but I don't find it crowded. Probably Bilbo, young Frodo, Elrond, the memebers of the White Council, Arwen? Not that many...

A quick note: Aragorn's story is connected to the Hobbit because it happens in Rivendell in the beginning. And remember what Tolkien says about Rivendell: a place where the hero goes to reflect, a spot for reflection where many people/lines gather (the quote is not exact). That's how I've always imagined Rivendell - many roads end there, many people meet, some stay together, others do part but it all starts/ends there at one point.

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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Oct 5 2008, 1:28am

Post #32 of 46 (178 views)
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How do you include Bilbo and Frodo without making it a side story [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that you could include Gandalf visiting Bilbo in the Shire. But what purpose does it serve other than to please the fans? What part of the greater story does it push forward? I think that it would halt whatever story the filmmakers are telling. And I think that including the Rangers around the Shire does the same. How do you explain who they are and what they're doing without raising too many questions and halting the story? I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I wouldn't do it if I were making the movie. Guess it's a good thing that I'm not, though. Cool



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simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 1:46am

Post #33 of 46 (176 views)
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Thank you for not directing F2 [In reply to] Can't Post

You would be tough to fight with Tongue

No, I don't mention here only story lines. I also mention scenes, shots that pop up in my head. The rangers are part of Aragorn's story. As well as from Gandalf's as he asked them to watch the Shire. And why should it be explained right there? I don't think it has to. In fact I think it should be left a mistery and when people see FOTR then they will make the connection with Bilbo and the One Ring and why the Shire had to be watched and guarded. That's how I'd like to see it. I'd like to see hints, not explanations.

Bilbo and Frodo - well, to see Bilbo after we've watched the Hobbit is no surprise and I don't think it's a new story line. And to see him adopting a small child - it could be made like a hint again. I don't think people need to be explained, they can find out for themselves. As it is said for writers: don't tell but show. I don't want to be told who, where, why and when. I want to be shown a scene and be left to make my own guess/conclusion.

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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Oct 5 2008, 2:05am

Post #34 of 46 (208 views)
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There's another saying among writers [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially writers of short stories or films: "Don't include anything that's not directly advancing the story." My question on Bilbo and Frodo is this:

Assuming the filmmakers are telling the story of the White Council and Aragorn's travels, at what point in a 2-3 hour movie should Gandalf break away from the dangers and adventures of ME and visit the peaceful Shire? A lot depends on which part of the story they're telling and how they are telling it, but a break to the Shire destroys whatever tension they need to build.

The way it could work is to start F2 in the Shire. TH and LOTR start and end in the Shire, so this would be a nice bit of continuity. I just can't find a way to move the story out of the Shire smoothly without including a Hobbit (which would be very wrong, IMO).

Again, all in my opinion. GdT and PJ are both better storytellers than myself; they could find a way. That's why they make the big bucks Cool



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simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 2:47am

Post #35 of 46 (169 views)
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They can leave the Gandalf/Ballin trip for F2 [In reply to] Can't Post

This way the movie would start in the Shire and it would both connect F2 with the Hobbit and move on as Gandalf leaves and rides toward the ... unknown tasks he has. It's all speculation, I know. Noone can guess what part of what story they will include. But what more pleasing than a little speculative game for the imagination tired of "no news"?
I know writers are supposed to leave any unnecessary stuff out of the book but I don't see Bilbo and Frodo as such stuff. Bilbo is important for F2 because he still has the One Ring which is the main theme of LOTR. Bilbo should not be a main character in this movie, though. I imagine just a quick visit from Gandalf and Ballin and then probably the story telling to the adopted Frodo and the other guys. I can see this particular scene as a building conflict one - the Shire is watched, guarded, there are men walking in the darkness under the trees, dangerous folks. At the same time the lights of the hobbit holes under the hill are bright, the sky there is clear, the songs from the inn are heard and Bilbo tells story next to the fireplace. Two sides of one world. Building tension - why is this peaceful place being watched? I write all these thinking mainly of people who will watch TH and F2 first, and then LOTR - like a series of five movies.

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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Oct 5 2008, 4:00am

Post #36 of 46 (167 views)
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You, also, are very difficult to argue with :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see how this would work. I still don't like it, but that's a matter of personal preference. I can see now how it could be worked in without completely destroying the movie. Tongue



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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2008, 5:32am

Post #37 of 46 (159 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I think to show us Frodo just to make some fans cheer is silly. I don't think the second film should take place in the shire, the first half should be the White Council combating Dol Guldur then Aragorn and Gandalf teaming up to track gollum.



almas_sparks
Rohan

Oct 5 2008, 5:32pm

Post #38 of 46 (170 views)
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no to babies and weddings [In reply to] Can't Post

i`m sorry but I really don`t want to see the second movie full of baby/child versions of grown-up characters from LOTR. Just don`t give them any ideas since they are high on crew and cast-member children cameos. So, no, please, no kiddie versions of anyone. I can live with Bilbo adopting baby Frodo to an extent, since it makes sence in the contest of the story, but weddings of so-and-so`s parents and birth of so-and-so who is 18-80 in LOTR...thanks but no thanks.

Also, if the period of time between Hobbit and LOTR puts new characters up front, develop them rather than forcing in old characters who did nothing note-worthy. The Hobbit will introduce people who will not appear in LOTR ( 12 dwarfs, Bard, Beorn), so I don`t see why movie 2 will have to force a continuity by returning cast who has no business in the timeline.


(This post was edited by almas_sparks on Oct 5 2008, 5:33pm)


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 9:06pm

Post #39 of 46 (142 views)
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Because F2 is a bridge movie [In reply to] Can't Post

and not The Hobbit 2. Besides, I don`t see any weddings coming to F2 to complain. Who will get married, did I miss something? If you mean Aragorn's parents, I don't think anyone expected or wanted their wedding in the movie. If they are shown at all it should be just a glance.

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simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 9:24pm

Post #40 of 46 (139 views)
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Ah, it means a lot coming from you! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you so much for trying to understand my completely confused visions and thoughts Smile I'd love to read your vision, though. I know you wrote in general but when you have time, I'd be happy to "see" some of your scenes which you think are important or which you would love to see.

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Sunflower
Valinor

Oct 5 2008, 11:14pm

Post #41 of 46 (168 views)
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Grades of heresy [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, the wedding of Denethor and Findulias, and Boromir and Faramir as children, for one. I'd love to see this dysfunctional family onscreen as much as possible, but alas..it isn't relevant, so it shouldn't be.

As for heresy...well, sorry to put a damper on this, but alas, I am no heretic. Laugh

Maybe we should have a ratings scale for this.
"Heresy", on a scale of 1 to 5:

1--Purist (P) (Brigand-style)

2--Not A Real Purist (NARP)
(For those who say they are open-minded about F2 but find themselves blathering about proposed changes, and "Well, I really wish it didn't have to be made, but seeing that it is...") (I suspect these are the "Khazad-Dumb" people--"it's just a silly Bridge movie" They have sadly resigned themselves to the fact that F2 is being made and are hanging black banners on their walls in sorrow. Oh wait, that was 1....

3--- On The Fence (OTF)
(For those who just can't make up their freakin' mind at the moment, and their opinions change with every interview Guillermo gives. These people are in a perpetual state of intellectual nerves. I'd say this was my condition 2 months ago.))

4--Subjective Support (SS)
(These people give cautious approval to F2 in concept, as long as G keeps to a set of strict guidelines--stick to what is necessary, we don't see such and such characters from LOTR, etc etc. And they are STILL sharpening their knives and firing up the braziers to roast *ahem* people over the coals if F2 commits any such sins, and on top of that, is NOT a good movie. This is my present conditon.Laugh)
Of course, people who fall in the 1 and 2 category may take the initials "SS" as they like....

5--Objective Support (OS) I'd say this Gramma-style support. "Our Four" can do no wrong! (I mean that as a compliment, Gramma!)`
These people proudly fly the Heretic banner high, to the point of sprouting "unsawed" Hellboy horns. Sly


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Oct 5 2008, 11:18pm)


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 5 2008, 11:32pm

Post #42 of 46 (135 views)
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Wow, I'm impressed [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, i will read this again later but I'm currently trying to figure out if OS or SS would suit me better Tongue Thank you, Sunflower! However, we still miss your scenes/story lines for F2 - in details, please Cool

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Sunflower
Valinor

Oct 6 2008, 12:05am

Post #43 of 46 (157 views)
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Hey! [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't going to write my own version of the script!! If that's what you're thinking....and I honestly don't know how it would begin or end....but an ending similar to TTT would be nice for F2..."Gandalf saying "Sauron's wrath would be terrible, his retribution swift"....riding into the sunset would be too cliche but maybe a shot of them riding into the night down a hill at night--moonlight--would be nice, then in TTT they'd be riding up a grassy hill in the daytime and Gandalf delivers a similar speech, but more hopeful. It would bookmark the films nicely.

And here is what I'm thinking too. No matter how you try to gloss it over, F2 is still going to have a down ending. it will be a film depicting massive screw-ups, enabling the rise of Sauron, and there is no "wanting to see for years" pre-written scene like the Anakin/Vader molten lava duel from ROTS.to keep the fan buzz alive ..("we fought. Your father fell into a molten pit. When he crawled out of that fiery mass, there was no trace of Anakin left in him. He was Darth Vader, irredeemably scarred and twisted, his spirit only held to his body through machinery and the force of his own black will...." if I remember the 1983 "ROTJ" novel correctly)

I was just going to say what I would or would not like to see...and so far, others seem to be giving nice ideas....Falling closer to Cat 2 right now, but still retaining vestiges of 3. So pardon my confusion. I will have a better idea later.....but one thing is for sure: here is a list of people I do NOT think should be in it--(Not that I don't want to see them, it's more of a "PJ shot EVERYTHING but I'm so glad it didn't end up in any version, but hopefully we'll see the footage in some way someday" form....)

1)Denethor as a young man, and his wedding to Findulias
2)Faramir and Boromir as children
3)Anything to do with Arathorn, Gilraen, or Aragorn age 20 or under (However, if they show Aragorn and Gandalf's first meeting, this could be a problem, as Aragorn is 25 at the time and PJ would mess with the timeline...I don't know how open Guillermo is to such revision, though.
I *WOULD* want a glimpse of the older Gilraen somehow, she is the one character I am DYING to see....and she is referred to in the EE.
4)Bungo, Drogo, the Bullroarer (well,maybe him, but only in a very brief "Sauron's finger getting cut off"-style and length flashback though)
5)Smeagol as himself has been covered already. And seeing Smeagol the Stoor is more effective at the end of the story, in ROTK than the beginning. It makes his tale more poignant. So this would not work....no Grandmother or Stoor village. Sorry Andy!
6)Frodo. Sorry, he is just not needed. Again, he has the perfect intro in FOTR, in both versions.


Events I DO want to see, and for which PJ/Fran could make up minor speaking roles in F2:

--The Bounders of the Shire
--a fellow Ranger or two, standing guard around the Shire ((would be a great humorous touch to have a "what am I doing stuck in this Eru-forsaken backwater" type comment....PJ wouldn't do it, it's sacreligious, but that's Guillermo's perverse sense of humor
--people of Laketown, hungry and cold and suffering shuffling around the ruins of Laketown after Smaug is killed, with a mournful Shore cue in the background, "changing" the mood, feel, and environment of Me forever from that point
--various slimy politician and lackey types surrounding the master of Laketown

Just some ideas.


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 6 2008, 5:15am

Post #44 of 46 (129 views)
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Wow [In reply to] Can't Post

I will read all this again tomorrow, I don't feel prepared now to comment. I thought you were going to mention just a few things but I thank you for such a detailed response Smile This will be my morning coffee read.

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Jettorex
Lorien


Oct 6 2008, 2:34pm

Post #45 of 46 (146 views)
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Thanks Simplyaven [In reply to] Can't Post

for your kind reply.

I beleive they would all be allowed for F2 as they are either explicitely in the appendix and/or implied. Also, that they all fall under events in the general TH to LotR timeline.

Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Oct 7 2008, 4:33am

Post #46 of 46 (159 views)
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Great! [In reply to] Can't Post

I truly love the riding in the moonlight idea! I'm a night person, hopefully GDT will read your post!

Now, Aragorn has to be there, otherwise I'm leaving the theatre (what will I do if I watch a DVD at home?!) Cool Seriously, I don't imagine Aragorn with his past life and inner burdens looking young in his 30s, so I definitely expect to see Viggo (with lots of make up and dyed hair of course). But I mostly want to see their hunt for the Gollum and the Rangers in general which is leater than Aragorn's 25th birthday.

I'm also dying to see Gilraen, I imagine a very... Elvish looks, delicate yet strong... It's difficult to describe but I've seen her in my mind like the glow that was brightening Lorien Smile

I agree with all your points under the "I DO want to see" category Cool Thank you for your input!

Culinary journey through Middle Earth starting October 15 on the Main board

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