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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
FOTR question
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Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 12 2008, 5:57pm

Post #126 of 141 (157 views)
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Reply [In reply to] Can't Post

"I reckon that's about as close to Peter Jackson telling you there's a new staff as you're going to get!"

As a matter of fact, not only did I see this before, but I even addressed it already.

That could have been because it was the second staff they used in production, not the second staff that was intended to be a new one in the Story.

If he intended it to be a new staff in the Story itself, I'm sure he would have made the differences a lot more clearer, to the point where it would be obvious at first glance.

No one ever acknowledges anything about his "second" staff in the Movie. Even they (Aragorn and company) couldn't tell the difference lol (a bit of sarcasm in that last line, obviously).

So again, that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it unless Peter Jackson tells me otherwise himself.

Anyways, I have to go to a family member's house, as we have Hurricane Ike on it's way over here, and I would like to make sure my family is ok.

Everyone have a great weekend, and stay safe.



Peredhil lover
Valinor

Sep 12 2008, 6:50pm

Post #127 of 141 (145 views)
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Answer [In reply to] Can't Post


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Oh please, like Gandalf couldn't break the door down even if it were locked? And again, that's assuming it was locked. He didn't seem to have any problem leaving it unlocked before the Orcs just walked in.

Aha. You insist on Gandalf needing his staff to channel his power, but you think he can blow up the door without it. Something he did not even when they went there from Helm's Deep and he could have done easily.
Anyway, I'm still of the opinion Gandalf didn't have the time to went in and search for the staff.



Quote
You keep missing the part where I said he wouldn't need magic to defeat a few Orcs. He used his staff in a physical manner (no magic involved) when he fought the Orcs at Minas Tirith.

Okay. Then please explain to me why you think it essential for him to have a staff at all.



Quote
Who did Saruman want to impress? Gandalf? Gandalf already knew how powerful he was.

Who said I was talking about Gandalf? We're talking about a movie here; for the movie-goer it might look more impressive. And as Arwen's daughter already pointed out, it was the easiest way to hold two staves.



Quote
Yeah, because Gandalf was just huffing and puffing trying to catch his breath after the fall, right? No, he was looking directly at the Witch King as if he didn't just fall off a horse. This is a fantasy Movie, not real life. Are you going to say that there are people as old as Gandalf in real life?

[sarcasm]Oh sorry. I didn't know that in a fantasy movie it doesn't hurt when you fall and that only old people get hurt[/sarcasm] But I have to admit, that was one of the scenes in the movies that *never* made much sense to me anyway.



Quote
When did they ever do anything more than break Saruman's staff?

Read the book again:
"Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council."
That was what Gandalf said before he broke Saruman's staff. To me casting Saruman from the order implies that he took his power as an Istari away.



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The fact that Saruman didn't keep Gandalf's old staff handy, suggests that he never had it in the first place (after Gandalf left the Tower the first time around).


Can you prove that Gandalf's staff would work for Saruman at all? They were made for different Istari and probably different powers.
And as I said, breaking the staff only can't be all that is to do, otherwise Saruman would only need to steal another to get his power back, and I simply don't believe they would take this risk.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Sep 12 2008, 8:13pm

Post #128 of 141 (134 views)
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Hope Ike passes you by [In reply to] Can't Post

and that you and your family stay safe this weekend.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


ElanorTX
Grey Havens


Sep 13 2008, 12:56am

Post #129 of 141 (118 views)
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no offense taken, Wikipedia does have errors [In reply to] Can't Post

and strong opinions, and people who can't spell, and all the other elements of human nature.

Wiki policy encourages posters to be bold and relies on other readers to catch errors. Some entries attract vandals and may get inadvertently changed during repair.

BTW Wikipedia material is 'copyleft' instead of copyrighted and can be quoted freely with proper acknowledgment.

I'll be watching the RR thread. Thanks for the help,

ElanorTX

"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."


Magpie
Immortal


Sep 13 2008, 1:26am

Post #130 of 141 (127 views)
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I just sorted Movie-LOTR by number of replies and this thread came out on top [In reply to] Can't Post

with 128 replies (mine will be 129)

You can't sort by views but it doesn't have the highest number of views.



magpie avatar gallery ~ LOTR soundtrack website ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Sep 13 2008, 5:32am

Post #131 of 141 (110 views)
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Wow [In reply to] Can't Post

Who would have thought that such a seemingly easy question could end up with so many replies to make the top of the list? It's really fascinating - sometimes I think a discussion might get long with that topic, but no, it's over soon, and in other cases I think that's answered with a few posts, and then it takes off ... TORn is really amazing!

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Sep 13 2008, 2:22pm

Post #132 of 141 (106 views)
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Hope you're ok [In reply to] Can't Post

Even here on the other side of the pond the news about Ike are rather alarming. Stay safe, and I hope you don't suffer any damage to your place! Please let us know if you're ok!

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 13 2008, 8:35pm

Post #133 of 141 (102 views)
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Reply [In reply to] Can't Post

"Aha. You insist on Gandalf needing his staff to channel his power, but you think he can blow up the door without it. Something he did not even when they went there from Helm's Deep and he could have done easily.
Anyway, I'm still of the opinion Gandalf didn't have the time to went in and search for the staff."


He wouldn't have to blow the door up. Just bust through it (or a window if they have/had to). Gandalf has shown to be pretty strong.

He didn't have to do that after Helm's Deep. Saruman came out to talk to them anyways on top of his Tower. Gandalf just wanted to approach the situation carefully.

I myself, am still of the opinion that he did have enough time.

"Okay. Then please explain to me why you think it essential for him to have a staff at all."

He needs his staff to channel his magic through it, but that doesn't mean he can't use it physically as well. Gandalf fought without a staff just fine at the Black Gate. Obviously he would have been able to do more damage with his staff, but he's good enough physically to defend himself against a lot of Orcs.

"Who said I was talking about Gandalf? We're talking about a movie here; for the movie-goer it might look more impressive. And as Arwen's daughter already pointed out, it was the easiest way to hold two staves."

I've also been saying that from our perspective Jackson may have just put the new staff in to make us speculate (since they looked so alike). I'm sure if he intended on letting us know that Gandalf got a brand new staff, the differences would have been a lot more clear at first glance, like when he got a new staff as Gandalf The White.

"[sarcasm]Oh sorry. I didn't know that in a fantasy movie it doesn't hurt when you fall and that only old people get hurt[/sarcasm] But I have to admit, that was one of the scenes in the movies that *never* made much sense to me anyway."

He didn't show any signs of having trouble breathing, or trying to catch his breath.

Gandalf isn't a Human being, and we can't forget that. I do agree the scene doesn't make sense to a degree, but according to people earlier in the thread, we aren't allowed to reference the canon (so to speak) Story.

"Read the book again:
"Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council."
That was what Gandalf said before he broke Saruman's staff. To me casting Saruman from the order implies that he took his power as an Istari away."


Apparently we aren't allowed to reference the book. I tried to already to prove my points earlier, but according to people earlier in the thread the book doesn't count in this situation.

"Can you prove that Gandalf's staff would work for Saruman at all? They were made for different Istari and probably different powers.
And as I said, breaking the staff only can't be all that is to do, otherwise Saruman would only need to steal another to get his power back, and I simply don't believe they would take this risk."


It appears that the fact that their power is within them, and not from their staffs, doesn't seem to apply to the Movie. There are several situations to prove what I'm talking about.

1. Saruman would have had no reason to take Gandalf's staff in the first place, because it wouldn't take away any of Gandalf's power at all.
2. It wouldn't have mattered to Saruman if his staff was broken.
3. It wouldn't have mattered to Gandalf if his staff was broken.
4. There really wouldn't be any reasons for them to have staffs in the first place, if they could use their magic regardless. You can't really argue that they actually needed them as walking sticks, as it shows Gandalf doing just fine without a staff after it's broken by the Witch King.
5. Gandalf wouldn't need any sort of weapon to knock Denethor on his butt.
6. Gandalf wouldn't have needed the staff against The Balrog Of Moria.
7. Gandalf wouldn't have needed the staff to place his pipe on.

But hey, in response to your second post, I appreciate the well wishes and everything. I hope nothing bad turned out where you are.

We had much of our fence torn down, which I will be fixing/replacing throughout tomorrow, or as soon as it dries down over here and everything. I'll be having Family over as well, since their power is still out. Our power went out as well, but it just came back on today. We are fortunate to be located right next to a Police Department, so our power was one of the first to be turned back on.


(This post was edited by Legolas123 on Sep 13 2008, 8:42pm)


Legolas123
The Shire

Sep 13 2008, 8:37pm

Post #134 of 141 (98 views)
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Reply [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you very much. Fortunately, none of us (me and/or any of my Family) got hurt. The only big damage happened to my backyard. I will have a lot of replacing/fixing to do throughout tomorrow and/or as soon as it gets dry over here.

I send my prayers and thoughts to anyone and everyone who was effected by Hurricane Ike in any sort of way.


weaver
Half-elven

Sep 13 2008, 10:16pm

Post #135 of 141 (109 views)
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that must be just for the new boards, right? [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember threads that went on...and on...and on...when the films were first coming out and people were very vocal about things that they felt were brilliant or despicable.
Often they were talking about the same scene, even!

But yes, this has certainly been the longest debate around here in ages...!

Weaver



Magpie
Immortal


Sep 13 2008, 11:16pm

Post #136 of 141 (92 views)
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well, yeah... [In reply to] Can't Post

the sorter function only works for the threads here. I also don't think it would count any of the Hobbit threads that were 'here' before the two movies got their own boards.

Interesting that I think the Hobbit threads resided here for awhile and then got their own board as opposed to thinking that it used to be a movie board and then that was replaced by two separate boards... or that the LOTR threads got moved and the Hobbit kept the old movie board. It's all in how you look at it, I guess.



magpie avatar gallery ~ LOTR soundtrack website ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 14 2008, 12:22am

Post #137 of 141 (90 views)
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Heh. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, we made a new forum and moved all the Hobbit threads there. I think of the Hobbit board as the child who grew up, moved out and got his own place. Wink

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 14 2008, 3:15am

Post #138 of 141 (109 views)
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OT - 458; Main - 341; Hobbit - 269; RR - 152 [In reply to] Can't Post

Those are the largest number of replies received by a thread on each of those boards since the new forums went online. (I didn't check the Arena, Pollantir, Gaming, or Feedback boards.) The Off Topic forum has seen 45 threads earn more responses than this thread (mostly Fiesta posts). Similarly there are 6 longer threads on Main, 8 on the Hobbit forum, and 2 in the Reading Room. For the old boards, I only have statistics for the Reading Room, where the most popular thread (by Frodo-esque in 2004) received 160 replies, and where there were 7 other threads longer than this one.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Sep. 8-14 for "The Passing of the Grey Company".

+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 14 2008, 2:08pm

Post #139 of 141 (76 views)
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:) /// [In reply to] Can't Post

 





sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 14 2008, 4:01pm

Post #140 of 141 (77 views)
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I have offered some proposed language [In reply to] Can't Post

After some discussion, I have offered some proposed alternative language for the entry on the Maiar in the Reading Room thread that I started. It is here.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'


Magpie
Immortal


Sep 14 2008, 4:41pm

Post #141 of 141 (364 views)
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I really appreciate your efforts here [In reply to] Can't Post

I use Wikipedia as a starting point but try to back it up with something else before quoting it or taking it as fact. But the more accurate an entry is, the less work I have to do sorting out conflicting information.

As for being a Wikipedia editor, I think it just takes a registration. I decided to do that when I thought I could add some information on the soundtrack. Unfortunately, I misspoke on one entry but caught myself a short time later and went back and corrected it. So, yes... we try to pool or knowledge but errors are made through inadvertence or just hubris that we think we know/understand more than we do.

So I would suggest you just register yourself and then you can fuss with text over time if needed, and you can offer you're own thoughts on the discussion page.



magpie avatar gallery ~ LOTR soundtrack website ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

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