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Delete thread, please.

Sunflower
Valinor

Aug 21 2008, 11:33pm

Post #1 of 19 (462 views)
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Delete thread, please. Can't Post

I haven't even read the message boards yet, but I have 2 PM's and can see that this is going to turn into something I don't want.

My "Little Request" thread in OT is going in many directions and I didn't want it to get specific. To whoever is the current Moderator PTB, I'd appreciate it if it was taken down, please.

Thanks


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Aug 21 2008, 11:38pm

Post #2 of 19 (227 views)
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Done // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


Tintallė
Gondor

Aug 22 2008, 2:48am

Post #3 of 19 (300 views)
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With all due respect [In reply to] Can't Post

(and I do respect you, Altaira), this morning I was really enjoying reading peoples' viewpoints and general philosophies on world events. It was not vitriolic as of noon, when I left for the afternoon, although I suppose it may have become so. Still, I am deeply disappointed that the entire thread was deleted. Are we deemed incapable of conducting civil discussions on matters of more importance than whether or not Guillermo del Toro will do justice to The Hobbit? Or is it TORN's philosophy that we should avoid such discussions of real life altogether and confine ourselves to fantasy land? Doesn't the Off Topic board allow us an open forum for all things not Tolkien as long as civility prevails?

In the past I've asked that a post be deleted but it was because I had betrayed an old trust with imprudent remarks. On another occasion I've deleted my own post because I reacted rather than responded to someone and wrote something emotional and inflammatory rather than rational and reasoned. Deleting a thread in response to someone who anticipates trouble rather than deleting actual troublesome or flame war-type posts does us all an injustice. Sunflower's private messages are just that - private, and they can be ignored or answered as she chooses. Unless there were nastyisms or personal attacks posted publicly, I find the ready deletion of what was a thoughtful discussion more troubling than Sunflower's original post.

Respectfully (I hope),

Tintallė


Aerin
Grey Havens


Aug 22 2008, 5:04am

Post #4 of 19 (276 views)
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WADR as well, [In reply to] Can't Post

civility had not prevailed; perhaps you didn't see at least one post with a nasty personal attack before it was edited by an admin.


Tintallė
Gondor

Aug 22 2008, 6:11am

Post #5 of 19 (267 views)
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No, I didn't see it (but I really wish I had). [In reply to] Can't Post

How very disappointing to know that happened - but was it sufficient grounds for deleting the entire thread? I suppose leaving any part of it would just invite more snarkiness sooner or later.

Ah well, I suppose there are other forums more suited for such things. I just had such hopes. . . *sigh*

Thanks for letting me know.


burrahobbit
Rohan


Aug 22 2008, 10:24am

Post #6 of 19 (278 views)
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Agree [In reply to] Can't Post

It was an interesting and worthwhile thread, and there were many thoughtful posts that unfortunately are no longer on the board.

I too missed the "uncivil posts" that Aerin mentions below, and perhaps if I had seen them I would understand the decision to delete the thread. But I think deleting the offensive posts in question would be the best policy, rather than deleting the whole thread. I hope this message board is mature enough to have good and enlightening political discussions.


        
     View my Hobbit Film Adaptation Discussion


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Aug 22 2008, 4:09pm

Post #7 of 19 (238 views)
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I agree with you 100% [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw no reason the thread should be deleted either, which is why it stayed up so long. Other than some personal remarks that were easily edited out, it was turning into a good, thoughtful conversation. However, having taken considerable flack in the past for not deleting threads upon the thread-starters request, our policy is now to do so.

The question is really whether a thread 'belongs' to the person who starts it, especially if there are multiple replies (it's an easier matter if there are few to no replies). As I said, due to past issues, the person who started the thread has the final say. I can only suggest that, if there *are* multiple replies, and no sparks are flying, everyone consider carefully before asking that an entire thread they started be deleted, because if we delete their thread, a bunch of other people's posts go with it.

I *can* undelete it, but only if it's okay with Sunflower.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


FarFromHome
Valinor


Aug 22 2008, 4:35pm

Post #8 of 19 (231 views)
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Is there no other way? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can understand that you need to respect the wishes of a thread-starter to have their own root post deleted, but could there not be some kind of anonymous "place-holder" inserted at the top of a thread so that replies (suitably edited if necessary) don't have to go too? There were some thoughtful and interesting posts in there.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 22 2008, 5:12pm

Post #9 of 19 (251 views)
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Whose thread is it anyway? [In reply to] Can't Post

I once asked here that a contentious and wrong-headed thread that I started be deleted, but I also requested that the deletion only occur with the approval of everyone who had replied. I didn't feel that I owned the entire conversation, just because I made the first post. Altaira observes that the TORN now is to delete entire threads upon the request of the original poster. I don't like that policy --it gives the original poster too much power-- but there it is. So Sunflower: would you please consider allowing the reinstatement of the thread? If you feel that your comments need editing (though I saw nothing in your original post that crossed any lines) so be it. But why shut everyone else up?

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Aug. 18-24 for "Shelob's Lair".

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How to find old Reading Room discussions.


SirDennisC
Half-elven

Aug 22 2008, 8:54pm

Post #10 of 19 (212 views)
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When I was a mod [In reply to] Can't Post

on a volatile political board, if a thread had replies and the lead poster wanted the thread taken down, we would transfer the replies to a new thread called "Discussion on blank continues here." Sometimes references to the post starter needed to be cut from replies as well.

Alternatively we might make the lead post invisible.

This board is by far the most mature, intelligent, and friendly one I have ever come across (including one run by pastors for pastors -- I'm not a pastor, just enjoy a variety of discussion topics.)

I too am disappointed the thread came down. I was delighted with the level of analysis, respect and insight shown by most fellow fans.

It is important as a group to use our voice on matters of concern.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Aug 22 2008, 8:58pm)


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Aug 22 2008, 9:31pm

Post #11 of 19 (203 views)
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Yes, there is [In reply to] Can't Post

We do have several options with the new boards to leave the thread intact. From now on we'll ask people to consider that option before we delete an entire thread (in cases of requests for deletion by a person who started a thread).


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


FarFromHome
Valinor


Aug 22 2008, 10:16pm

Post #12 of 19 (220 views)
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Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

for being so willing to take everyone's opinions into account. Your great work here is much appreciated, Altaira!

Evil

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


orcbane
Gondor


Aug 22 2008, 11:59pm

Post #13 of 19 (191 views)
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Its mine [In reply to] Can't Post

I stole it. Laugh

But I don't want to keep it & am going to give it back. So prepare thee yonder discussionments. Tongue



An Ent juggling spikey things ?


Sunflower
Valinor

Aug 23 2008, 12:16am

Post #14 of 19 (212 views)
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Well, I guess everyone deserves my say.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Some thoughts.

1) When I asked Altaira to delete the thread, I actually felt kind of bad, b/c there WERE several great viewpoints, and asking that the thread be deleted would make me look like I wanted it taken down b/c someone had a POV that I didn't want to argue, for whatever reason, so killing the thread was a way to "end the discussion" as a childish way to end an argument I thought I couldn't win. If one didn't know netter, OF COURSE this would make me look narrow-minded! *Far from it*. I want everyone to know that this was NOT the case, and if I had more time to be online, and the mood to engage in political discussion right now, I'd happily have PM'd a few people and carried on my points there. (I feel esp bad for you, Tntalle...as regards the thread, you're right, of course.) I've done this in the past with other issues.

2)Sometimes, when the headlines are particularily "hot",(esp with regard to domestic American political issues) I do feel this place is at times a little too kumbaya. One of my favorite paragraphs in LOTR is the one in Bag End where Gandalf says he feels concerned about "all these charming, helpless hobbits" and thought an earthquake or an invasion of dragons would be good for them. Other sites have political discussion forums; why not this one? I have only posted on the "Third Age" incarnation of TORN for a year (actually, I missed my 1-yr mathom date, I think) but I did post for a long time on the old boards when the films were out, under the name Fimbrethil. There wasn't a political forum there either.
For a long time, this seemed like a deficiency in the site to me. (I'll be frank.) I am a HUGE U2 fan and a veteran of the lively politcal discussions on my favorite U2 site, Interference.com. But now, I really do see the wisdom of TPTB's decision to keep the content of the message boards mostly Tolkien-related. It's because unlike a lot of sites, the reach of this site is TRULY global, the love for Tolkien spans countries, generations, cultures. And in a world where currents are running particularily hot right now, certain issues would be "flash-point" buttons that would draw posters from those countries to a thread like mine, as a point of defending national honor. For example: TORN had a delightful Homepage article on a Chinese gymnast with an LOTR reference. Say we brought up the Fulan Gong, or Tibet, or any other issue dissidents use in protests. Just mentioning the issue, however you feel about it, invites an angry response. Or an "even-handed" response about Russia would invite a comment from a new Georgian user whose home was destroyed by a Russian tank, or a Russian who lost a soldier relative in Georgian fighting. If the US attacks Iran, and Israel is somehow involved, I know we have at least one active Israeli poster here right now. One of the ":Figwit" co-founder was an Israeli student. (I'm continuing this post in an edit, I have to run a second--be back) And given the global reputation of America right now, ANY kind of comment that would in the faintest be construed as "Bush-bashing" would inpire angry comment from Republican posters. Yes, sometimes we are able to keep discussions civil, but in times of active war, it isn't always possible. In political discussions, the linger it goes on, the more acriminious it eventually becomes....IMO anyway. Even if it starts out civil. I guess it depends on the issue. But this site's unusual international readership makes such evenhandedness unlikely, IMO.
So if we have to live in a fantasy-land, I guess however artifiicail, we've seen the results..the friendships, the lack of cliqueism. We have enough to worry about with purists, etc. We cause our own debates well enough!

3) Regarding the subject of the thread. It's true, I asked that the thread be deleted b/c it was a way to cool myself down, and I saw no other choice. Altaira sent me a PM which must have been a pointed warning, and I felt it was in my best interest to make the gesture of deleting it. I may as well say that I am not a childish, narrow-minded so and so, I may be a generation younger than many of the readers on here and it sounds like a couple f you), but I minored in history in college, and was a sponge long before then. I consider myself pretty well-read. PLus, I had a mother and uncle who told me many of the same stories you'd tellme. But I have to say that this is personal....


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Aug 23 2008, 12:26am)


Sunflower
Valinor

Aug 23 2008, 12:47am

Post #15 of 19 (246 views)
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Opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

This is for you, Tinatalle...

I think you were the one who said you lived through this stuff, Cold War etc. Well, Let me fill you in.
I may be a Gen X'er, but I was in the past pretty "active". Heck, I still am. Generally with environmental issues. But frankly, I am sick and tired of going to events like a environmentally related event, sponsored by local farmers, where we all march down to the Governor's Mansion (I live in Albany, NY< and the Gov's mansion is pretty close to my place....25 minutes drive in heavy traffic) so I've seen a lot of national political figures speak and political events) with our signs, and speeches, and they huddle in little groups, insulated from the world. Frankly, I am *sick and tired* of Baby-Boomer age "activists" huddling together at these things and acting as if they were still the salt of God's earth, a superior race of being, simply b/c they lived in the '60's. You try to approach them, but they look past you as if you were a disease germ. There's a smugness and condenscation about them that only seems to confirm the attitude in the media that Gen X and Y are a bunch of lazy slackers, we did our protesting, now it's your turn to take over from us. And by the way, your art, your music, your opinions are nothing compared to ours b/c we were aware, we ACTED, and you are a bunch of whiners..get up off your duff and QUIT WHINING. There are some of us who dare to approach
I've been at the personal brunt of these things and I am sorry if it sounded like I was taking this out on anybody.

It's my opinion that right now, experience does not always count for naught, this country as changed in ways that many do not even begin to realize, and there are reasons why the damage is less reparable than in the past. If I were to bring up phrases such as "rigged election", "government not by democracy, but by Executive Order", "free speech zone", "800,000 people on the No-Fly List", "Reporters being fired for uttering a President's name in a negative sentence, their network having to issue an immediate apology, and their show immediately cancelled", "arrested on a plane flight to a foreign country just for wearing a "politically subversive T-shirt that caused "emotional distress", ...tell me, was this possible in the 60's? What do you do when the media is in too socially close to those whom they're supposed to watch? I was going to suggest ways that this country HAS changed that Boomers might not recognize, since they are the least exposed to the effects. Unless you're doing something like crossing the Canadian border. If I have a lot to learn from someone who learned to live through the COld War, I feel that older readers may have a lot to learn about Bush's America. IMO, there are things happening that are not 9/11 related in the least, that are NOT necessary as a result, and have much more sinister overtones. It's as if we have put on the Ring....where do we stop?

I make it a point to read sites and papers of all opinions, I am not close-minded. But it is my opinion that older readers may be as ossified in their opinions as younger readers may be. Generationally speaking, there may a lot we can learn from each other. But let's be frank: if I had brought up those phrases, those issues, in my thread, could the discussion have stayed civil? I don't think so.

There is the wisdom of experience and the wisdom of...well, relative youth. Both have merits. Older people can say "Chill out, I have lived through this"; but once in a while, (my dear older Boomer friendsSly) there are times when younger people may have a point too. I feel I am in a unique position as the Berlin Wall came down when I was in college, so I straddled both eras.

Now, I chose to "reply" here as this is not a thread proper, but the "basement" of the TORN house, where nobody else can see us. I want you to know that I hope this doesn't make you all hate me. I have these Scorpio" moments once in a while, and unfortunately I chOSE torn TO blow off steam b/c I ahve nowehre else!


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Aug 23 2008, 12:56am)


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Aug 23 2008, 1:33am

Post #16 of 19 (195 views)
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I'll be frank. [In reply to] Can't Post

I find the number of throwaway political comments tossed around here annoying enough...whether I agree with them or not.
If people can't control that sort of behavior in ordinary threads, how can I trust them to filter their words in truly politically-themed threads? I don't like labels or stereotypes, and comments like this:

Quote

ANY kind of comment that would in the faintest be construed as "Bush-bashing" would inpire angry comment from Republican posters.


which is clearly not based in the factual history of TORn as I know it--are not helpful or encouraging. Standard policy among the Republicans of TORn, as far as I can tell, has been 'no comment' and 'do not engage'. And to assume that the Republicans here will see ANY critical comment as "bashing" or unjustified is insulting, IMO. There is no hive mind among Republicans any more than among Tolkien fans. We're not going to agree on All Things Bush any more than TORNadoes agree on the quality of PJ's work.

Many times I silently disagree with your politically-charged statements, but it's because I choose to believe my sources of news rather than yours, not because of my political affiliation. We're each entitled to those opinions and interpretations, but it would be nice if we could all express them without even unintentionally implying that those who hold a different opinion or make different choices are evil/mean/stupid/guilty by association. Most of the time that can be avoided by not posting in haste.
That's my mileage, FWIW.


(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Aug 23 2008, 1:40am)


a.s.
Valinor


Aug 23 2008, 1:39am

Post #17 of 19 (196 views)
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as someone who also mentioned her relative age in the other thread... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry I can't view it anymore, to see if it sounded as though I meant or tried to imply that there was some value in age that confers political awareness.

My only point in mentioning relative age was that I have lived through "end of the world" scenarios before and have decided not to live in panic. That was not intended to be perjorative of the younger generation in any way.

I am not Tintalle, obviously, and have hijacked this space. However, if you (or anyone else) took some offense at my post, I apologize.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


Tintallė
Gondor

Aug 23 2008, 5:06am

Post #18 of 19 (188 views)
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You have made judgments and assumptions that are not only incorrect [In reply to] Can't Post

but also incredibly, unbelievably offensive.

Those who read my original post can draw their own conclusions as to the message I intended to convey. Judging from the responses I received, I venture others got what you seen to have missed entirely.

Now I believe deleting the entire thread was in everyone's best interests, which is a sad, sad about face for me.

Very sad indeed.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 23 2008, 5:36am

Post #19 of 19 (514 views)
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This conversation ends now. [In reply to] Can't Post

Two threads gone sour in two days is quite enough for one topic. I suggest it not continue, either here or via PM.

Move along, folks. Nothing to see here.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories

(This post was edited by Silverlode on Aug 23 2008, 5:37am)

 
 

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