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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Journey to the Crossroads: As If a Dream Had Passed

a.s.
Valinor


Aug 5 2008, 11:26pm

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Journey to the Crossroads: As If a Dream Had Passed Can't Post

The chapter opens with the hobbits breaking fast with Faramir. Water is brought for them, and water is discussed:



Quote

You will have no lack of water as you walk in Ithilien, but do not drink of any stream that flows from Imlad Morgul, the Valley of Living Death



First time readers must wonder what might happen to a hobbit who drinks Mordor Water; yet our hobbits will be forced to this, in time.

Then Faramir tells them a strange thing:


Quote

This also I must tell you. My scouts and watchers have all returned, even some that have crept within sight of the Morannon. They all find a strange thing. The land is empty. Nothing is on the road, and no sound of foot, or horn, or bowstring is anywhere to be heard. A waiting silence broods above the Nameless Land. I do not know what this portends. But the time draws swiftly to some great conclusion. Storm is coming. Hasten while you may! If you are ready, let us go. The Sun will soon rise above the shadow.




1. What day is this? Is Faramir noting that something portentious is happening at the same time that Gandalf is talking to Pippin about boards being set and pieces are moving and wondering where Faramir is?


2. Why does Tolkien capitalize the word "Storm" instead of saying "a storm is coming"? Or even "A Storm is coming"?


Once again our hobbits take leave of someone who has offered them help and friendship "unlooked for", and once again they are gifted with presents for leavetaking:



Quote

'I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting,' said Faramir; `but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. The men of the White Mountains use them; though these have been cut down to your height and newly shod. They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning. May that virtue not wholly fail under the Shadow into which you go!'

The hobbits bowed low. `Most gracious host,' said Frodo, 'it was said to me by Elrond Halfelven that I should find friendship upon the way, secret and unlooked for. Certainly I looked for no such friendship as you have shown. To have found it turns evil to great good.'




They are joined again by Gollum, who must be blindfolded prior to leaving (the hobbits being released from this requirement by Faramir), and who squeals and raises a fuss until finally Frodo says:



Quote

'Blindfold us all three, and cover up my eyes first, and then perhaps he will see that no harm is meant.' This was done, and they were led from the cave of Henneth Annûn. After they had passed the passages and stairs they felt the cool morning air, fresh and sweet, about them. Still blind they went on for some little time, up and then gently down. At last the voice of Faramir ordered them to be uncovered.


They stood under the boughs of the woods again.



Faramir gives them some advice about travelling:



Quote

'Here is the last parting of our ways,' said Faramir. 'If you take my counsel, you will not turn eastward yet. Go straight on, for thus you will have the cover of the woodland for many miles. On your west is an edge where the land falls into the great vales, sometimes suddenly and sheer, sometimes in long hillsides. Keep near to this edge and the skirts of the forest. In the beginning of your journey you may walk under daylight, I think. The land dreams in a false peace, and for a while all evil is withdrawn




Faramir bids farewell to the hobbits, stooping to kiss them on their foreheads and wishing them to "Go with the good will of all good men!". The hobbits bow low "to the ground" in return. Then the green-clad men vanish quickly into the trees.

And Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) are left standing:



Quote

The forest where Faramir had stood seemed empty and drear, as if a dream had passed.




3. There is much to compare (and contrast) here, of course, with Lorien. Thoughts?

4. Other presents the hobbits have received have stood them in good stead, so far. Frodo's mithril coat, for example, and their Elven cloaks. What about these staves? Do we hear about these staves again? They "find", but don't "return"?

5. Are Frodo and Sam going to find any more "friends unlooked for" from this point on?


Any other thoughts or comments on this part of the text welcome.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


Elizabeth
Valinor


Aug 6 2008, 3:23am

Post #2 of 20 (477 views)
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Ask Darkstone about the poisonous water. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he's our Hazmat expert.

As I mentioned last week, those staves really irritate me, as bearers of an unfulfilled promise. Sam whacks Gollum with his, in the tunnel, but AFAIK there's no other mention. In this one instance, the "virtue" seems to have failed: they are lost and do not return. The hobbits, at least, return, although I don't see how the staves can accept the credit!

I also find it strange that Ithilien has gone quiet so suddenly... just yesterday it was full of Haradrim and Mumakil. I guess they were the very last to arrive (at least, those that survived Faramir's ambush). But "the woods are quiet... too quiet" has ever been a classic tension-builder. As I recall, Aragorn made a similar observation in Hollin.





Sunset, July 3, 2008

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


batik
Tol Eressea


Aug 6 2008, 4:22am

Post #3 of 20 (404 views)
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Lorien [In reply to] Can't Post

   

Quote
There is much to compare (and contrast) here, of course, with Lorien. Thoughts?

The use of blindfolds comes to mind first. Being the guide as the Fellowship entered Lorien, Haldir applied this restriction to Gimli, only, but the others did so "willingly". No blindfolds were used when the Company left Lorien. In contrast, blindfolds were used both entering and exiting Henneth Annon--required going in and "optional" for Frodo and Sam upon leaving-- but for Gollum this was a must.
When the Company was being lead in by Haldir, they experienced a sort of running commentary; however, the trip away from the Forbidden Pool seemed to silent until Farmir "ordered then to be uncovered".
Also, Faramir's counsel, with regards to directions, is straightforward. In contrast, Celeborn initially is somewhat vague about giving counsel/directions. He does provide a fairly good general description of what's down the River later. Faramir-the Captain-direct and to the point. Celeborn--the Wisest Elf--making suggestions. One seems to have a more subjective interest in (preventing) the great approaching danger and the other appears to be more objective about the matter.
Trees and water are a part of both lands and are well described. Of course gifts are given by the "hosts" to the "guests" at each parting.
"The land dreams in a false peace..." and "...on the land of Lorien there was no stain" are interesting comments about the lands through which Frodo has traveled.



(This post was edited by batik on Aug 6 2008, 4:26am)


sador
Half-elven

Aug 6 2008, 3:00pm

Post #4 of 20 (384 views)
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Short answers [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What day is this? Is Faramir noting that something portentious is happening at the same time that Gandalf is talking to Pippin about boards being set and pieces are moving and wondering where Faramir is?
Nice. I didn't make the connection before.

2. Why does Tolkien capitalize the word "Storm" instead of saying "a storm is coming"? Or even "A Storm is coming"?

It is the Storm, as Frodo will feel when he sees the Morgul-host set forth.

3. There is much to compare (and contrast) here, of course, with Lorien. Thoughts?
The one important comparison is Faramir's testing of Frodo, 'tricking' Sam to reveal the Quest (like Galadriel had Frodo offer her the Ring), offering Frodo a chance to fulfill a deep wish which is nevertheless wrong (getting rid of Gollum for good) - and then realising he himself was being tested, and passing the test.


4. Other presents the hobbits have received have stood them in good stead, so far. Frodo's mithril coat, for example, and their Elven cloaks. What about these staves? Do we hear about these staves again? They "find", but don't "return"?
Not much. It is interesting that Shagrat didn't think much of Frodo's stave, and didn't identify it as Gondorian gear. If he had, the stave would be presented to Gandalf by the Mouth of Sauron.

Note the connection between 'stave' and 'staff'.

5. Are Frodo and Sam going to find any more "friends unlooked for" from this point on?
Not friends. But the combination of events often turns things in their favour.

"A job of work for me, I can see; but I'm so tired" - Sam


Elizabeth
Valinor


Aug 6 2008, 3:07pm

Post #5 of 20 (399 views)
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I think "staves" means more than one "staff". [In reply to] Can't Post

To "stave off" something is literally to keep it at bay using a staff. I don't think there is such a thing as "a stave" any more than "a dwarv" or "an elv".





Sunset, July 3, 2008

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 6 2008, 5:28pm

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"The woven staves have yet worth in them for woeful hearts." [In reply to] Can't Post

--J.R.R. Tolkien, The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth, Beorhthelm's Son.

The version published in The Tolkien Reader has "stars" for "staves".

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squire
Valinor


Aug 6 2008, 8:29pm

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Do you mean staves, or staves? [In reply to] Can't Post

Torthelm:
His head was higher than the helm of kings
with heathen crowns, his heart keener
and his soul clearer than swords of heroes
polished and proven: than plated gold
his worth was greater. From the world has passed
a prince peerless in peace and war,
just in judgment, generous-handed
as the golden lords of long ago.
He has gone to God glory seeking,
Beorhtnoth beloved.

Tídwald:
Brave words my lad!
The woven staves have yet worth in them
for woeful hearts. But there’s work to do,
ere the funeral begins.

Tidwald (Tolkien) is using another meaning for Stave here - not the plural of Staff, but a stanza of sung poetry. Note that Torthelm's staves are "woven" - intertwined with alliteration - as wooden staves could not be. Tidwald is saying that chanting heroic poetry in the classic Anglo-saxon style has a certain value for consoling mourners.

Here's a working definition:

A stanza is a succession of lines (verses) commonly bound together by a rhyme scheme, and usually forming one of a series of similar groups that constitute a poem.
Stave is a word (now seldom used) that means a stanza set to music or intended to be sung: a stave of a hymn; a stave of a drinking song. - Dictionary.com, based on Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

I didn't dig all the way to the bottom of this word (I don't have an OED, for one thing). I was wondering if there is any connection between sung staves, and the fact that staves also refers to the parallel lines on a music score, that keep the notes in their proper places. In this latter usage, the staves are clearly acting as "staffs" to prop up or support the notation. But I feel there ought to be a connection between staves as songs, and staves as a tool for writing the music for the songs.



squire online:
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weaver
Half-elven

Aug 6 2008, 8:53pm

Post #8 of 20 (374 views)
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I wondered about the alternative meanings for staves as well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I kind of like Faramir giving Frodo and Sam a gift that offers support and associations with poetry and music. Very fitting for his character and for Tolkien...

Weaver



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 6 2008, 9:23pm

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Both, apparently. [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew that the "Beorhtnoth" reference was musically-derived, but hadn't checked to see if there was a connection between the two "staves" or not. Now I have. From the Oxford English Dictionary, accessible online through my local public library, here is the etymology for "staff" n. 1, which includes among its many definitions both senses under discussion here:

Quote
Com. Teut.: OE. stæf masc. corresponds to OFris. stef, OS. -staf (MLG., MDu., Du. staf), OHG., MHG. stap, genit. stabes (mod.G. stab). ON. staf-r (Sw. staf, Da. stav):OTeut. *stabo-z; a variant type *stabi- appears in Goth. *staf-s (in dat. pl. stabim) rendering [nine Greek letters – N.E.B.'s note] element; a third type, possibly ancient, is represented by early mod.Du. stave, now staaf fem., bar. Other probable derivatives from the Teut. *stab- (? to be firm or fixed) are Da. stabbe (Icel. stabbi) STAB n.1; ON. stef neut. (:*stabjon-) set or recurring time, refrain, stefja (:*stabjon-) to prevent, stefna fem. appointed time (:*stabnjon-), STEVEN n.; OHG. stabên (MHG. staben) to become stiff. The pre-Teut. type might be either *stapo- (? f. *sta- to stand, with suffix of causative import as in Sk. sthapayati makes to stand), or *stabho-.
The plural form staves is now somewhat archaic, exc. in certain senses in which a sing. form STAVE has been developed from it; but it is still preferred in those senses that are confined to literary use.


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batik
Tol Eressea


Aug 7 2008, 12:59am

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a question [In reply to] Can't Post


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Are Frodo and Sam going to find any more "friends unlooked for" from this point on?

Would the Eagles be considered "friends"?



squire
Valinor


Aug 7 2008, 1:58am

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We are forgetting our family history! [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew there was some reason I was able to interpret staves as "lyrics" when I read that obscure Homecoming excerpt! Tolkien liked the word, and used it both ways in The Lord of the Rings.

The specific line I finally remembered was Eomer's (see #3 below) in Return of the King. But on checking I see that staves is used three times as "lyrics" in Book V. Then it gets used twice in Book VI with the same meaning as in Ithilien: as the plural of staff.

Whose shall the horn be? Who shall call them
from the prey twilight, the forgotten people?
The heir of him to whom the oath they swore.
From the North shall he come, need shall drive him:
he shall pass the Door to the Paths of the Dead.
'Dark ways doubtless, said Gimli, but no darker than these staves are to me.' – RotK, V.2

Men that saw them whispered saying: 'Belike the old tales speak well; there is Elvish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of Nimrodel dwelt in that land once long ago.' And then one would sing amid the gloom some staves of the Lay of Nimrodel, or other songs of the Vale of Anduin out of vanished years. – RotK, V.4

To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

These staves he spoke, yet he laughed as he said them. – RotK, V.6


Note that the two actual quotations of staves are, as in Homecoming, alliterative English verse. The Lay of Nimrodel, which is not extant in Tolkien, is thus probably of the same style. (Legolas' rhyming song on the border of Lothlorien is only called "a song of Nimrodel".)

In the "Scouring of the Shire", we go back to the other usage. I wonder if it is just coincidence that Tolkien does not mix the two dissimilar usages too close together in his book?

But as they came to the east end of the village they met a barrier with a large board saying NO ROAD; and behind it stood a large band of Shirriffs with staves in their hands and feathers in their caps, looking both important and rather scared. – RotK, VI.8


Already, apart from many younger lads, more than a hundred sturdy hobbits were assembled with axes, and heavy hammers, and long knives, and stout staves: and a few had hunting-bows. – RotK, VI.8




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sador
Half-elven

Aug 7 2008, 5:43am

Post #12 of 20 (355 views)
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Didn't Saruman use 'staffs'? [In reply to] Can't Post

In 'The Voice of Saruman', talking about later - when Gandalf has the staffs of the five wizards?

If I am correct - it is interesting that Saruman of all people uses this language.
And another point - as far as I remember, Denethor has a rod (and Theoden a staff). Any comment on these differences?

"A job of work for me, I can see; but I'm so tired" - Sam


Elizabeth
Valinor


Aug 7 2008, 3:37pm

Post #13 of 20 (341 views)
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Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. [In reply to] Can't Post

A rod is short, and a staff is long (possibly with a crook at the top, or in Gandalf's case, a lamp). A billy club is a rod. The "Black Rod" is an usher in the House of Lords, who uses his symbol of office to guide peers.





Sunset, July 3, 2008

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 7 2008, 4:17pm

Post #14 of 20 (408 views)
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Faramir gave Sam a thong???? [In reply to] Can't Post

The chapter opens with the hobbits breaking fast with Faramir. Water is brought for them, and water is discussed:



Quote

You will have no lack of water as you walk in Ithilien, but do not drink of any stream that flows from Imlad Morgul, the Valley of Living Death



First time readers must wonder what might happen to a hobbit who drinks Mordor Water; yet our hobbits will be forced to this, in time.


One wonders about the sanitary conditions with tens of thousands of orcs all around the place. Any running water would doubtless be contaminated with orc feces. Think of the parasites!

Similarly, any stream coming from a "valley of living death" has just got to be contaminated by carrion. Dumping carcasses into streams is a good way to spread all sorts of nasty diseases like cholera, dysentry, typhoid, and hepititis.

And one wonders about the contents of the resultant wastewater when Sauron hoses out the Fell Beast stables?

Besides the biohazards, there’s the inorganic pollution. Like with Orthanc there’s doubtless lots of mining going on. When you’re mining a particular ore, you also dig out a lot of other stuff. For example, copper, lead, zinc, and nickel are found in mineral deposits of chalcopyrite, galena, sphalerite, and pentlandite. These minerals contain sulfide, and when they’re left in big piles of waste around a mine they turn water into sulfuric acid. That’s not good to drink for hobbits or other living things. Mine “tailings” may also contain a host of other toxic chemicals like cyanide, arsenic, mercury, and cadmium, which can also contaminate water. (On the other hand, tailings can add fluoride to water, which prevents cavities!)

All in all, "don’t drink the water" is good advice. But like with the classic western “The Three Godfathers” (1948), drinking poisoned water can keep you from dying of thirst so you can at least live long enough to complete your mission.


Then Faramir tells them a strange thing:


Quote

This also I must tell you. My scouts and watchers have all returned, even some that have crept within sight of the Morannon. They all find a strange thing. The land is empty. Nothing is on the road, and no sound of foot, or horn, or bowstring is anywhere to be heard. A waiting silence broods above the Nameless Land. I do not know what this portends. But the time draws swiftly to some great conclusion. Storm is coming. Hasten while you may! If you are ready, let us go. The Sun will soon rise above the shadow.

1. What day is this?


D-Day. The Witch King is marshalling his forces. This description is very similar to how many English natives described the days just before the invasion of Normandy, when all Allied forces were restricted to their bases. After months of noisy Americans, Canadians, and other troops all over the place the entire south of England suddenly seemed very very empty.


I Faramir noting that something portentious is happening at the same time that Gandalf is talking to Pippin about boards being set and pieces are moving and wondering where Faramir is?

“It’s quiet. Too quiet.”
-Every parent since the Stone Age.


2. Why does Tolkien capitalize the word "Storm" instead of saying "a storm is coming"? Or even "A Storm is coming"?

It’s like D-Day. There are many invasions but there is only one Invasion.


3. There is much to compare (and contrast) here, of course, with Lorien. Thoughts?

Counsel, gifts, kisses, blindfolds, and warnings of treachery.

As for contrasts, I’d rather get a kiss from Galadriel than Faramir, but I’m sure that’s just me.


4. Other presents the hobbits have received have stood them in good stead, so far. Frodo's mithril coat, for example, and their Elven cloaks. What about these staves?

Gollum won’t soon forget Sam’s staff.


Do we hear about these staves again?

"His sword was still in his hand, and on his left arm, hanging by its thong, was Faramir's staff."


"Laying hold of the staff with his left hand, Sam swung it up, and down it came with a whistling crack on Gollum's outstretched arm, just below the elbow."


"With a squeal Gollum let go. Then Sam waded in; not waiting to change the staff from left to right he dealt another savage blow. Quick as a snake Gollum slithered aside, and the stroke aimed at his head fell across his back. The staff cracked and broke."


"Then at last he began to weep; and going to Frodo he composed his body, and folded his cold hands upon his breast, and wrapped his cloak about him; and he laid his own sword at one side, and the staff that Faramir had given at the other."


They "find", but don't "return"?

If it weren’t for Faramir’s staff, Sam and Frodo would have been killed at Shelob’s Lair, and there would have been no return.


5. Are Frodo and Sam going to find any more "friends unlooked for" from this point on?

Shagrat saves Frodo from getting sucked dry by Shelob and lets Sam know Frodo is alive. Gorbag causes a lot of orcs to be killed so Sam can get into Cirith Ungol. And Snaga leads Sam to where Frodo is. Very unlooked for help. And Gollum shows up at the last to help toss the ring into the Crack of Doom. And whoda thought Gandalf and the eagles would have showed up?

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



sador
Half-elven

Aug 7 2008, 11:28pm

Post #15 of 20 (379 views)
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The verse you quoted is very interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

In Hebrew, the word shevet (which in the translation you used is rendered 'rod') is a symbol of power and authority, somewhat similar to the Roman fasces. Another intersting point is that this is also the Hebrew word for tribe - i.e. tribes are defined not by loose family connections, but by a common acknowledged authority.
The word mish'enet ('staff' in the same translation) means a support.
The difference between the two is functional rather than physical (although the physical properties naturally vary with their use).

So Denethor has got a rod of authority, while Theoden leans on his staff; and Frodo and Sam are given staves, to help them in mountain climbing. I suspect the 'virtue of finding and returning' means actually being reliable supports, and helping the travellers feel the lay of the land so that they don't stumble. Nothing magic.

And it seems that nobody bothered to check after me, even when I was relying on my memory without the books - should I take that as a compliment? In 'The Voice of Saruman':

Quote

Later! Yes, when you have the Keys of Barad-dur itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those you wear now. A modest plan.

The wizards have rods, as symbols of authority. I was misled by Saruman's description in that chapter, as an old man leaning on a heavy black staff, and by Frodo's lament of Gandalf in 'The Mirror of Galadriel', who described Gandalf's "thorny staff" (Christian symbolism?) which was "broken om the stone". But when the wizards are revealed, their staffs become rods - a functional transition, not a physical one. Which reinforces Hama's words:

Quote
The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age.



So as far as the intent of my original post is concerned - I simply messed up. Tolkien does not use 'staffs', at least not in the chapter I thought I remembered. (hanging head in shame)

"A job of work for me, I can see; but I'm so tired" - Sam


(This post was edited by sador on Aug 7 2008, 11:29pm)


sador
Half-elven

Aug 7 2008, 11:38pm

Post #16 of 20 (355 views)
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I wonder [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Wide flats lay on either bank, shadowy meads filled with pale white flowers. Luminous these were too, beautiful and yet horrible of shape, like the demented forms in an uneasy dream; and they gave forth a faint sickening charnell-smell; an odour of rottenness filled the air... The water falling beneath was silent, and it steamed, but the vapour that rose from it, curling and twisting about the bridge, was deadly cold. Frodo felt his senses reeling and his mind darkening.

- 'The Stairs of cirith Ungol'
It is the crossing of this stream which urges Frodo to run to Minas Morgul.

Can biological and chemical pollution account for this description?

"A job of work for me, I can see; but I'm so tired" - Sam


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 8 2008, 2:12am

Post #17 of 20 (337 views)
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No, he just had Grima and some half-orc henchmen. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue

Sorry, this is what state my brain is in after posting about BotR...Crazy

Laugh !


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 8 2008, 1:41pm

Post #18 of 20 (348 views)
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Do you really want to know? [In reply to] Can't Post

Two chemicals that immediately come to mind are ammonium nitrate and potassium chloride. When they are mixed in large amounts with water they produce just such an effect as described.

Both chemicals are present in putrefied urine. Anyone who has entered a public bathroom where the urinals haven't been flushed for a while would recognize the odor.

Mordor is obviously a very nasty place.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



a.s.
Valinor


Aug 10 2008, 1:35am

Post #19 of 20 (313 views)
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no shame allowed. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is friendly conversation.



Quote

And it seems that nobody bothered to check after me, even when I was relying on my memory without the books - should I take that as a compliment? In 'The Voice of Saruman':


Quote

Later! Yes, when you have the Keys of Barad-dur itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those you wear now. A modest plan.



So as far as the intent of my original post is concerned - I simply messed up. Tolkien does not use 'staffs', at least not in the chapter I thought I remembered. (hanging head in shame)





When you said it I thought, "yeah, that's right". So...

LOL. I'd take it as a complment.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


a.s.
Valinor


Aug 10 2008, 1:39am

Post #20 of 20 (539 views)
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in dreams [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote

Quote

The forest where Faramir had stood seemed empty and drear, as if a dream had passed.




3. There is much to compare (and contrast) here, of course, with Lorien. Thoughts?





Anyone want to ruminate on "dreams" and the hobbits' experiences in Lorien and Ithilien (at least, this part of Ithilien they have been visiting in Faramir's company)?

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

 
 

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