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Journey to the Crossroads: The Crossroads

a.s.
Valinor


Aug 4 2008, 3:40am

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Journey to the Crossroads: The Crossroads Can't Post

I'm posting tonight just to let you all know I'll be posting later.

Cool

This is a short but wonderfully evocative chapter. I'll be posting once a day, in the evening, M-F. No need to respond to this post.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


a.s.
Valinor


Aug 4 2008, 10:58pm

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liminal space [In reply to] Can't Post

In this short, lovely chapter we once again will find the hobbits entering and leaving a liminal space (a "space between", "neither here nor there", "a blurry boundary between two clearly defined areas"). Standing in the middle of a crossroads one is very literally neither here nor there, and crossroads have long been recognized as special places "outside".

In the words of Wikipedia:

Liminality in places

These can range from borders, to no man's lands and disputed territories, to crossroads to perhaps airports or hotels, which people pass through but do not live in. In mythology and religion or esoteric lore this can include such realms as Purgatory or Da'at which as well as signifying liminality some theologians have denied actually existing, making them, in some cases, doubly liminal. "Between-ness" defines these spaces. For a hotel worker (an insider) or a person passing by with disinterest (a total outsider), the hotel would have a very different connotation. To a traveller staying there, the hotel would function as a liminal zone.

Examples in fiction include the Interzone, the Wood between the Worlds and, as mentioned, The Twilight Zone (1959). In this television series, the Twilight Zone does not appear as an actual literal location, making it both a place and not a place at the same time, and therefore also doubly liminal.

Doors, windows, springs, caves, shores, rivers, volcanic calderas, fords, passes, crossroads, bridges, and marshes are all liminal. Oedipus (an adoptee and therefore liminal) met his father at the crossroads and killed him; the bluesman Robert Johnson met the devil at the crossroads, where he is said to have sold his soul. Major transformations occur at crossroads and other liminal places, at least partly because liminality -- being so unstable -- can pave the way for access to esoteric knowledge or understanding of both sides. Liminality is sacred, alluring, and dangerous.


In England until as late as 1823 (when the practice was prohibited by law), criminals and suicides were often buried in a crossroads:

The reasons why crossroads were used for the execution and burial of criminals have only begun to be investigated. They may derive from a belief that the roads would confuse the ghost of the deceased, preventing it returning to haunt its home. The use of communal boundaries may have emphasised the criminal's outcast nature, while signifying the boundary between life and death.

Or, as another web site says:

crossroads play a key role in the religion, folklore, and magic traditions of many cultures. A crossroads is seen as no-man’s land, not owned by anyone, and, as such, is a perfect place to conduct a ritual, cast a spell, or create a makeshift altar. The crossroads is a location “between the worlds,” a site where supernatural spirits can be contacted and paranormal events can take place. Symbolically, it can mean a locality where two realms touch and therefore represents liminality, a place literally “neither here nor there.”

Many of us familiar with American blues (and/or English guitarists playing American blues) know the word crossroads from the old Robert Johnson standard (Eric Clapton's version is running through my head right now!):

Standin' at the crossroads, risin' sun goin' down
Standin' at the crossroads baby, the risin' sun goin' down
I believe to my soul now, po' Bob is sinkin' down


Some say he sold his soul to the devil there at the crossroads; and some say it was scary enough for a black man to be out at the crossroads after the sun went down in a small Mississippi town in the 1930s. There's all sorts of devils. But I digress.

In our previous discussion of this chapter, squire drew a great schematic for us. Leaving aside the question of where the statue might be placed (we'll get back to that), you can immediately notice that not only is the middle of the crossing-roads a space between, but the whole area of the crossing-roads is encircled by trees, creating another boundary demarcation.

Unlike other liminal spaces within LOTR (Lothlorien, Tom B's house) The Crossroads is not a peaceful resting place after danger; in fact, it is passed almost in the blink of an eye. And neither is it a place of great danger, like other liminal spaces in LOTR (Moria, Shelob's lair).

Questions:

1) Why does Tolkien include a Crossroads here? What function does it serve in the story?
2) Why a Crossroads on this date in the unfolding story?
3) Any other allusions brought to mind by the word crossroads?
4) Do we see any other crossroads--literal or metaphorical--in LOTR? What happens there?

Tomorrow: The hobbits leave the Window on the West, "as if a dream had passed".

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


a.s.
Valinor


Aug 5 2008, 12:28pm

Post #3 of 24 (1833 views)
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Bree sits on a crossroads [In reply to] Can't Post

Any similarities between the intersection of the East Road and the Greenway and the current Crossroads?

Frodo, Sam and Gollum reach the Crossroads on March 10. What's happening in Minas Tirith?

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

(This post was edited by Altaira on Aug 5 2008, 3:06pm)


batik
Tol Eressea


Aug 5 2008, 2:03pm

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quickly before leaving for work [In reply to] Can't Post

    On March 10, Faramir was rescued by Gandalf outside the city gates.


(more his evening-doing a bit of traveling today and will be thinking of crossroads!)


weaver
Half-elven

Aug 5 2008, 2:22pm

Post #5 of 24 (1811 views)
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I can think of lots of "cross references".... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure if any of them actually apply, though...

Carrying the cross, being crucified on a cross, dying on a cross, well Tolkien would certainly know about those images. Do crossroads have any basis in the cross as a spiritual symbol? I don't know...

At this crossroads, we get the "sign" of the returning king -- and at Bree the hobbits meet Strider, the returning king himself. Had not thought of that before! Thanks...

On the date, March 10, my first thought was to connect it with the start of Lent...I know Tolkien took pains to disassociate the tale from overt Catholicism references, but I also know that there are Christmas and Easter associations link to the dates he chose for significant things to happen. That seems kind of overt to me! I don't know how close March 10 is to when the "Easter" of the books happens, and do not have time to look it up right now, but I would not be surprised to find that Frodo had 40 days of suffering between this point and the coronation....

Weaver



Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 5 2008, 3:05pm

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Chandni Chowk [In reply to] Can't Post

Chandu ke chacha ne
Chandu ki chachi ko
Chandni Chowk mein
Chandni raat mein
Chaandi ke chamach se
Chatni chatayi.

(Chandu's uncle,
To Chandu's aunt,
In Chandni Chowk,
On a moonlit night,
With a silver spoon,
Fed chutney.)
-Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham (2001)


1) Why does Tolkien include a Crossroads here? What function does it serve in the story?

The Guardian of the Crossroads is the goddess Hecate. She can see in three directions at once: Past, present, and future. Hecate is also Goddess of the Moon, so she is quite an appropriate encounter for someone wandering in The Land of the Moon (Ithilien) while on a mission to dispose of Devoted-to-the-Moon’s Bane (Isildur’s Bane) by having to sneak past The Tower of the Moon (Minas Ithil) and fight a horrific guardian (Shelob, also a crone of power) by using the Light of the Moon (The Phial of Galadriel). This means something.

The Greek poetess Sappho called Hecate “Queen of the Night”, which again is appropriate in this chapter since as Gollum says our little trio now has to hide by day and travel by night. (Which brings up the question, since orcs hate the daylight, and only come out at night, why wouldn’t it be the other way around? I note Purists criticized Jackson for having movie Aragorn similarly deciding to wait until nightfall before crossing the Anduin.)

Speaking of trios, Hecate (crone) was part of a feminine trinity with Diana (maiden) and Demeter (mother). This fits in nicely with the LOTR feminine trinity of Eowyn, Arwen, and Galadriel. Hecate is often pictured holding a dagger, a key, and a rope. The latter immediately brings to mind the hithlain rope Galadriel gives to Sam.

As a power of the feminine, Hecate gives her guidance through intuition. In LOTR it is by listening to intuition rather than reason that gets the job done.

The Greek poet Hesiod said the name “Hecate” meant “She who has power far off”. So one might sense the presence of Galadriel looking over them from afar. Like the presence of Arwen looking over Aragorn from afar. Of course Eowyn, the third part of the LOTR trinity, takes matters into her own hands.

Female power. Which makes sense, as the ultimate liminal space is the exit of womb, through which all in the world must pass.

I better quit before I get too Freudian.


2) Why a Crossroads on this date in the unfolding story?

This is The Dawnless Day. It’s also the day the Rohirim (and Eowyn) ride from Dunharrow, Faramir is rescued by Gandalf and Imrahil, Aragorn and the Grey Company cross the Ringló River with the Dead, and Mordor orcs capture Cair Andros. It’s a busy news day in Middle-earth.


3) Any other allusions brought to mind by the word crossroads?

There’s that 2001 movie “Crossroads” with Britney Spears, Zoe Saldana, and Taryn Manning all on a road trip. Who do you think would be Frodo?


4) Do we see any other crossroads--literal or metaphorical--in LOTR?

Bree, Amon Hen, Dunharrow.


What happens there?

All heck breaks loose and people run off in half a dozen directions at once.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Elizabeth
Half-elven


Aug 5 2008, 3:27pm

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Too close. [In reply to] Can't Post

The "Easter" of the books (destruction of the Ring & Sauron) was on March 25. 40 days earlier would be Feb. 14. Don't have a book here, what happened on Feb. 14?





Sunset, July 3, 2008

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


weaver
Half-elven

Aug 5 2008, 3:43pm

Post #8 of 24 (1794 views)
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Feb. 14 is when Frodo looks into the Mirror of Galadriel... [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose you could make a 40 day count from there, but it's probably reading too much into things!

Thanks for helping me with the timeline...

Weaver



weaver
Half-elven

Aug 5 2008, 3:50pm

Post #9 of 24 (1850 views)
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Aiee.... [In reply to] Can't Post

There’s that 2001 movie “Crossroads” with Britney Spears, Zoe Saldana, and Taryn Manning all on a road trip. Who do you think would be Frodo?

I remember sitting through the trailer for that film before pretty much every showing of FOTR...as well as the trailer for one of the Austin Powers films. After awhile, they started to blend together...

A Britney-Powers has come -- Aiee!


Weaver



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 5 2008, 7:04pm

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Earlier than that? [In reply to] Can't Post

First, a mistake I've made several times myself: March 25 is the traditional date not of Easter but of Good Friday. Second, Sundays don't count, so Lent (calculated from Ash Wednesday through Holy Saturday) actually comes to 46 days.

On the other hand, March 25 was actually a Sunday according to the Shire calendar, and so perhaps more like Easter than Good Friday. But Sunday in the Shire was actually what we'd call a Tuesday, being two days after Friday, the high day of the Shire week, so maybe that means nothing. Then again, there isn't much significance to March 27, 3019, that I can see. If March 25 is Easter, March 24 is Holy Saturday, March 23 is Good Friday, then March 22 is Maundy Thursday, when Jesus was betrayed. Is that why Tolkien calls that the "dreadful nightfall"? (It's Frodo and Sam's last night on the road.)

But working backwards 46 days from March 24 (taking March 25 as Easter) or March 26 (taking March 25 as Good Friday) --this site is helpful-- yields either Feb. 9 or Feb. 11 as the beginning of Lent. I see no significance to either. So maybe Tolkien chose not to omit "Sundays" and you're right that the story's equivalent of Lent lasts just 40 days, from Feb. 15, the date the Fellowship sets out from Lórien, to March 24, the day before the eucatastrophe.

Or maybe Tolkien never bothered with this. We did try to figure it out at least once before.

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Join us Jul. 28-Aug. 3 for "Journey to the Cross-roads".

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batik
Tol Eressea


Aug 5 2008, 9:13pm

Post #11 of 24 (1789 views)
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Crossroads [In reply to] Can't Post

    

Quote
Why does Tolkien include a Crossroads here? What function does it serve in the story?

I believe it was Sean Astin who mentioned (in the film commentaries) the difficulty with getting a handle on M-E's geography. For me the Crossroads was a way to get a bearing on where things were currently taking place as well as where Frodo had been recently and where he was headed. This tied in to Faramir's recent references to places in Gondor. Maybe this was Tolkien's way of helping readers get a bearing and a providing a good reason to refer to the map at this point.


Quote
Do we see any other crossroads--literal or metaphorical--in LOTR? What happens there?

When the Fellowship is in/near Hollin they head over Caradhras-maybe this was a crossroads of sorts as, I think, Aragorn was for this route while Gandalf was thinking of going through Moria.
When the snow forced them to backtrack, another crossroads situation took place with Gandalf now set on taking the Moria route while Boromir spoke of trying for the Gap of Rohan or even going further south and entering Gondor that way. (Have to wonder "what if"?)

The term "liminal" is pretty interesting especially when linked with the "neither here nor there" phrase which I usually relate to "not a factor", "doesn't matter" thinking. If "at a crossroads" can refer to making a decision; then up against "not a factor" the two are have nearly opposite meanings, don't they?

BTW-I passed a signed today "Crossroads 7 miles"-it was not a factor as my route was already set.Wink


a.s.
Valinor


Aug 5 2008, 9:37pm

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related to Ghân-Buri-Ghân? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
-Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham (2001)




I give up. I know there's logic here, of a kind (you always have logic somewhere, hard as it may be for us lesser minds to find!). Is this an allusion that is passing over my head? "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do", said Ricky.

I love Hecate as the Goddess of Crossroads. The Goddess who sees three ways at once and the space where past-present-future intersect. But in my readings I came across (and failed to save) a reference to the fact that only a four-ways crossing of roads was known as a "cross-roads" in England. Anyone know if this is true?




Quote
Female power. Which makes sense, as the ultimate liminal space is the exit of womb, through which all in the world must pass. I better quit before I get too Freudian.





Yes. I had none of those things in mind but once one asks a leading question one can't help where people go. Cool



Quote

2) Why a Crossroads on this date in the unfolding story?

This is The Dawnless Day.




Yes, this is what I was going for. The Dawnless Day. The day the pieces are in motion on the board that has been set, and Frodo is at a Cross-roads, and the fate of all Middle Earth hangs on the direction he takes. And he just passes on down the road to Mordor. One metaphorical use of "at a crossroads" is to indicate that one has an important decision to make about what direction to take. But Frodo has no decision to make here, not really. He is already set to follow the road to Mordor. He isn't standing at the Cross-roads and contemplating which direction to take.

Maybe a mythical interpretation of being at the point in the middle of the Crossroads, then.



Quote
3) Any other allusions brought to mind by the word crossroads?

There’s that 2001 movie “Crossroads” with Britney Spears, Zoe Saldana, and Taryn Manning all on a road trip. Who do you think would be Frodo?





Oh Lord. I said "brought to mind" not "out of your mind". LOL.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


a.s.
Valinor


Aug 5 2008, 9:40pm

Post #13 of 24 (1783 views)
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ah...but would fate touch you there, at the Cross-roads? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
BTW-I passed a signed today "Crossroads 7 miles"-it was not a factor as my route was already set




One wonders. Would something magic happen if you passed through that center point, even if you knew which road to follow?

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


a.s.
Valinor


Aug 5 2008, 9:54pm

Post #14 of 24 (1780 views)
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that celtic cross [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Do crossroads have any basis in the cross as a spiritual symbol? I don't know...




Don't think so, it's older than Christianity. But when the hobbits enter the band of trees around the Cross-Roads, they are inside a Celtic Cross, here's squire's schematic from last time:





I don't agree with him on the placement of the statue, but we'll get to that later.

Here's an interesting thing about Cross-Roads:



Quote

Modern western thinking counts four cardinal points (north, south, east and west) but the Irish, along with several other traditional Indo-European cultures and the Chinese, think of five directions - the fifth being ‘here’ or ‘centre’. The logic of this is impeccable. ‘North’, ‘south’ and such like are all essentially relative terms - what is north of me at this moment might well be south of you or vica versa. Everything is relative to ‘here’ This fifth direction is also the axis mundi, the Cosmic Axis, which manifests worldwide as the World Tree and its derivatives, such as the maypole. For each of us, the centre is ‘here’. This cosmological symbolism begins to explain the sanctity given to crossroads. Although more difficult for the modern mind to comprehend, crossroads were once considered to be the most magical places, credited with powers of protection and healing, and favoured places for magical spells and love auguries. Crossroads were also dangerous places - penal courts often met there, the pillory or stocks and, traditionally, the gallows were so sited. Suicides, gypsies, witches, outlaws and other reprobates were buried there - as innumerable labourers repairing roads have discovered.

Traditional north European board games strongly reflect this same ‘four-sides-and-centre’ form. ‘Nine Men’s Morris’ was a common persuit throughout the medieval period and crudely-scratched ‘boards’ survive on the stone seats of a number of medieval church porches and the like. This game has survived today in the similar, but less-interesting, ‘Noughts and Crosses’. Of at least equal antiquity are a different family of related games which the Irish knew as Brandubh and the Vikings as Hnefatafl (‘King’s table’). One contestant defends the King, who starts play at the centre, from the other contestant, whose pieces start from the four sides.

From: The Fifth Direction: Sacred Centres in Ireland





Quote
At this crossroads, we get the "sign" of the returning king -- and at Bree the hobbits meet Strider, the returning king himself. Had not thought of that before! Thanks...




Yes. Two kings, two symbols of hope, two Crossroads.

Cool

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 5 2008, 10:06pm

Post #15 of 24 (1805 views)
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Britney Spears rather than Ralph Macchio? [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't see the 2001 film, but remember liking the 1986 movie starring Macchio and Joe Seneca. Good Ry Cooder music. **checks IMDb** Really -- Walter Hill directed? I had no idea.

My sister is a big fan of Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham, but I've never seen it. Like a.s., I can't guess what the connection to this chapter is.

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Join us Jul. 28-Aug. 3 for "Journey to the Cross-roads".

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weaver
Half-elven

Aug 5 2008, 11:12pm

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but what if were dark on Tuesday?... [In reply to] Can't Post

(You would have a royal fizzbin, of course...and some of you will know what I mean by that at least...!)

I was raised Catholic, but I don't remember if you could eat the candy you gave up for Lent on Sundays. I guess I thought it was 40 straight days...Tolkien, of course, if he intended a Lenten parallel, would follow whatever the church teaching was on Lent, so 46 would be more likely it.

I never thought of the destruction of the Ring as the LOTR Easter -- more of the date of the coronation, when the "king returns to the throne." That's May 1. But then the Lenten types of associations don't fit with the type of activities that are going on after the Ring is destroyed.

Time and math are not my strong suits, though, so I'm in way over my head on this. Thanks for letting me know others have tried to figure it out though!

Weaver



a.s.
Valinor


Aug 5 2008, 11:29pm

Post #17 of 24 (1820 views)
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Chandi Chowk, "Moonlit Avenue" [In reply to] Can't Post

I should have Googled it first! Wiki, here.

Cool

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 5 2008, 11:39pm

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Did it change with Vatican II? [In reply to] Can't Post

Before posting, I had checked the dates for Ash Wednesday and Holy Saturday for the years A.D. 2000-2009, and in each case the total elapsed time (inclusive) was .... 46 oops, make that 45 days, including six five Sundays. Wikipedia says Sundays don't count as Lent. That's the extent of my knowledge.

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Jul. 28-Aug. 3 for "Journey to the Cross-roads".

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weaver
Half-elven

Aug 5 2008, 11:55pm

Post #19 of 24 (1798 views)
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we need a better Catholic than me to answer that... [In reply to] Can't Post

...my recollections of Vatican II have more to do with the introduction of guitar masses and realizing that nuns had hair...

Weaver



a.s.
Valinor


Aug 6 2008, 12:16am

Post #20 of 24 (1787 views)
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not "better". maybe "older". LOL. [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's see: yes, you could eat your candy or do whatever you had given up for Lent on Sundays--at least, in my house (and my mom was strict!). I am not sure about the pre-Vatican two Church requirement for the things "given up for Lent"...I really TRULY don't think that "giving something up for Lent" was ever a "Church requirement", just a tradition anyway. But I will stand happily corrected if someone can.

Sundays in Lent (as in every other season) were always exempt from fasting. Here is the Pre-Vatican Two rule for American Catholics:


Quote

Fasting: All Catholics from the completion of their twenty-first year to the beginning of their sixtieth year are bound to observe the Law of fast. The days of fast are the weekdays of Lent, Ember Days, the Vigils of Pentecost, the Immaculate Conception, Christmas.



OK: I don't think Lent has anything to do with the date of March 10, I was going for "The Dawnless Day" (a date "within the story").

But it's sort of interesting: the roughly two weeks left for Frodo, if we regard his March 25 as chosen to represent the date of the Crucifixion, would be (again, roughly speaking) the Passiontide.

That seems significant somehow.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


ElanorTX
Tol Eressea


Aug 6 2008, 6:14am

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Technically, Lent ends on Holy Thursday, and [In reply to] Can't Post

the three-day period of Good Friday/Holy Saturday/Easter Sunday is known as the "triduum", literally three-day.
This is on the Western Catholic calendar. On the Western calendar Easter can occur as early as March 22.
Eastern rite churches such as the Greek Orthodox do include Sundays within the Lenten restrictions, and so they speak of the forty-eight days of Lent.

Also technically, "fast" refers to reducing the amount eaten or used. Doing without something is "abstinence."

I think that JRRT intended some general significance with Frodo's passion during Lent and particularly the saving of the world on March 25, Lady-day or Annunciation Day.
Annunciation, the day Gabriel appeared to Mary to proclaim Jesus' conception, doesn't change from year to year like Easter does.
The description of the calendar in the appendix is so complex that I cannot match exact dates.


BTW I am neither an older or a better Catholic Unsure just one who tries to respond to God's grace.

ElanorTX

"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."


sador
Half-elven

Aug 6 2008, 2:45pm

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Once I saw you clarifying the question [In reply to] Can't Post

2) Why a Crossroads on this date in the unfolding story?

As not referring to the Catholic calendar -
I think I can contribute a bit to the discussion.

This is not just the day darkness starts flowing from Mordor; the hobbits reach the crossroads at the exact time darkness falls.
In a way, Frodo finally turns his back upon Minas Tirith, and takes the way East. And that is exactly when darkness falls. Frodo goes into the Land of Shadow covered by a witchcraft shadow, which ironically ends up serving the interests of Mordor's enemies (as Eomer points out in 'The Ride of the Rohirrim' and Legolas in 'The Last Debate', IIRC).
But Frodo turns his back on a 'redeemed' Minas Tirith, which for him synbolises no more the town of Boromir who tried to take the Ring, but that of Faramir - a city which he now cares for and believes in.
And I think the last ray of sun which illuminates the recrowned king also symbolises the ray of hope Frodo glimpses.
I feel quite sure that without Faramir, and without the vision of the king, Frodo wouldn't have made it to Mount Doom.

"A job of work for me, I can see; but I'm so tired" - Sam


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 7 2008, 1:26am

Post #23 of 24 (1763 views)
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A "happening" place [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting, about liminality and crossroads! Where else have crossroads been the scene of a turning point in the story? Five came to mind:

It is not far from the crossroads at Bree that Gandalf comes across Radagast, who delivers Saruman's message, which sets Gandalf on a near-fatal course.

It is where the road to the Buckleberry Ferry intersects with the main road running east of the Brandywine that Maggot and the three Hobbits encounter Merry searching for them.

It is at the cross-path in Moria, where Gandalf cannot recall the way, that Pippin tosses the pebble into the well.

It is at the cross-roads south of Udun that armies of Orcs converge and create confusion, thereby allowing Frodo and Sam to escape.

It is at the "crossroads" of the Farthings of the Shire that Sam tosses the remaining dust of Lórien into the air, thus spreading the blessing throughout the Shire.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


Modtheow
Lorien


Aug 9 2008, 6:40pm

Post #24 of 24 (1871 views)
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"neither here nor there" [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that you're making me pay attention to the crossroads as a liminal space, I can see that it's "neither here nor there" -- in fact, it seems to be a spot that draws together the opposites that belong to both Mordor and the West. The trees that form the boundary of the centre are "very ancient" and have "fathomless roots," but their "tops were gaunt and broken." In the very centre, there's a light glowing on Sam's face and on the stone king, but there's also "black night" falling. There's the Mordor-head on the stone statue with its foul scrawls and symbols as well as the head crowned with flowers and illuminated by light from the west. Frodo is "filled with dread" and then with hope. It's like there's a combination of everything "in the very centre" where the four ways meet.

There is something that feels magical / sacred in this centre, making it the perfect place to have a vision. I think the whole scene can be taken as expressing Tolkien's view of human history in a nutshell: the world is degenerating -- what we're left with is something that resembles a "ruined hall" -- but there is a glimmer of hope for eternity ("They cannot conquer for ever"). We have befouled and mocked things and night is falling, but it's still possible to fight against these forces.

 
 

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