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Christian Symbolism in LOTR
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weaver
Half-elven

Jul 24 2008, 2:49pm

Post #101 of 125 (379 views)
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I better get mine soon, then, for the trains, JRR-riving soon.../// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Weaver



orcbane
Gondor


Jul 24 2008, 3:05pm

Post #102 of 125 (363 views)
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Hijacking heck...I'm Tolkien dereuelment :) [In reply to] Can't Post

 



An Ent juggling spikey things ?


weaver
Half-elven

Jul 24 2008, 3:20pm

Post #103 of 125 (352 views)
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not to worry, Edith that last week, too.../// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Weaver



Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Jul 24 2008, 3:25pm

Post #104 of 125 (342 views)
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You guys are getting Pri-scilly! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



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weaver
Half-elven

Jul 24 2008, 3:28pm

Post #105 of 125 (343 views)
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Mabel we are, and Mabel we aren't..// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Weaver



Annael
Half-elven


Jul 24 2008, 3:29pm

Post #106 of 125 (356 views)
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heh [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Caps are also likely to go in the other direction with as much vigour


I'm a Cap, and I'm a cock-eyed optimist to the nth degree! Maybe that's why that particular aspect of Tolkien bothers me?


Our similarities bring us to a common ground; our differences allow us to be fascinated by each other.
- Tom Robbins
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Annael
Half-elven


Jul 24 2008, 3:38pm

Post #107 of 125 (349 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Are there Christian elements that were influenced by Tolkien's beliefs? Yes, but we pick up on them because of either our personal belief system or because of a familiarity we have with Christian belief,


As a non-Christian who has studied the major world religions, I get a bit irked by the idea that the elements that resonate with many of us in Tolkien's writing are uniquely Christian. As far as I know, the only belief unique to Christianity is Original Sin and the need for a personal Saviour. Other concepts, such as those expressed in the Sermon on the Mount, can be found in most religions and resonate with many who follow no specific religion. My atheist father brought us all up to follow the Golden Rule, not because he feared damnation, but because he thinks it's the right way to be.

Our similarities bring us to a common ground; our differences allow us to be fascinated by each other.
- Tom Robbins
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Annael
Half-elven


Jul 24 2008, 3:41pm

Post #108 of 125 (373 views)
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I used to tell the scientists [In reply to] Can't Post

to go home and read Hemingway all weekend. Simple declarative sentences. I figured their internal "ear" for writing had been ruined by reading too many government documents, and Hemingway could cure them if anyone could.

Our similarities bring us to a common ground; our differences allow us to be fascinated by each other.
- Tom Robbins
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Jul 24 2008, 3:49pm

Post #109 of 125 (343 views)
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You guys are so unReuely! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



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orcbane
Gondor


Jul 24 2008, 4:15pm

Post #110 of 125 (344 views)
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Tolkien Reuelz [In reply to] Can't Post

 



An Ent juggling spikey things ?


weaver
Half-elven

Jul 24 2008, 4:29pm

Post #111 of 125 (343 views)
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Ronald kinds of levels!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Weaver



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 24 2008, 4:33pm

Post #112 of 125 (336 views)
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The JRRy's out on that one. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



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Aerin
Grey Havens


Jul 24 2008, 4:43pm

Post #113 of 125 (347 views)
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ROTFL!! [In reply to] Can't Post

TGIF!!!


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Jul 24 2008, 4:59pm

Post #114 of 125 (344 views)
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Gramma, you're so tol-Keen! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



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weaver
Half-elven

Jul 24 2008, 5:47pm

Post #115 of 125 (337 views)
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...she makes Suffield so happy whenever she's around...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Weaver



a.s.
Valinor


Jul 25 2008, 1:15am

Post #116 of 125 (342 views)
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I highly doubt it! [In reply to] Can't Post

Have I successfully "explained" ANYTHING in this thread, lol.

I really am not sure. Maybe (and I'm not sure how to Google this) people didn't originally equate "the date of the Crucifixion" with "Good Friday"?

Or maybe they didn't commemorate March 25 as a solemn holy day, they saved that for Good Friday, but just "remembered" the date each year?

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


Aerin
Grey Havens


Jul 25 2008, 4:26am

Post #117 of 125 (335 views)
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Good Friday [In reply to] Can't Post

has been observed since the 4th century, and it has always been the Friday before Easter and commemorating the Crucifixion. There was, however, an ancient tradition that the Crucifixion had happened on March 25, along with the Annunciation (ancient logic concluded that Christ's conception and death should have happened on the same date) and, for that matter, the creation and fall of Adam, the fall of Lucifer, the crossing of the Red Sea, and even the original Creation. Note that March 25 is exactly nine months before Christmas. Observance of Annunciation Day started very late in the 5th century, and March 25 became New Year's Day in the 6th century.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jul 25 2008, 4:44am

Post #118 of 125 (361 views)
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Thank you! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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a.s.
Valinor


Jul 25 2008, 11:19am

Post #119 of 125 (337 views)
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thanks!!! And I found this: [In reply to] Can't Post

Wikipedia entry for Christmas:



Quote
The Christian idea that Christ was conceived on the same date that he died on the cross is consistent with a Jewish belief that a prophet lived an integral number of years.[19]





From that footnote, I found the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for The Feast of the Annunciation (I love the snide "against all astronomical possibility" parenthetical remark!):



Quote

All Christian antiquity (against all astronomical possibility) recognized the 25th of March as the actual day of Our Lord's death. The opinion that the Incarnation also took place on that date is found in the pseudo-Cyprianic work "De Pascha Computus", c. 240. It argues that the coming of Our Lord and His death must have coincided with the creation andfall of Adam. And since the world was created in spring, the Saviour was also conceived and died shortly after the equinox of spring. Similar fanciful calculations are found in the early and later Middle Ages, and to them, no doubt, the dates of the feast of the Annunciation and of Christmas owe their origin. Consequently the ancient martyrologies assign to the 25th of March the creation of Adam and the crucifixion of Our Lord; also, the fall of Lucifer, the passing of Israel through the Red Sea and the immolation of Isaac. (Thruston, Christmas and the Christian Calendar, Amer. Eccl. Rev., XIX, 568.)



But I am not sure what Wikpedia means by "a Jewish belief that a prophet lived an integral number of years". Maybe someone has insight into that?

But it's obvious that these dates all have pre-Christian significance. Another layer of Tolkien thoughts, hidden in the text.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


Aerin
Grey Havens


Jul 25 2008, 3:33pm

Post #120 of 125 (316 views)
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"Integral years" [In reply to] Can't Post

refers to entire, rather than partial, years. As applied to an individual's life, it means living an exact number of years, with no extra days or months -- in other words, being born and dying on the same date. The belief about the prophets was that they all died on their birthdays. Interestingly, this seems to have been changed to the date of conception in the case of Christ.


a.s.
Valinor


Jul 25 2008, 4:37pm

Post #121 of 125 (328 views)
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my footer is becoming very apt, in this thread [In reply to] Can't Post

d'oh. "Integral" years.

Thanks, Aerin!!

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 25 2008, 8:09pm

Post #122 of 125 (329 views)
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I checked the Shippey reference [In reply to] Can't Post

that NEB mentioned earlier, and Shippey's footnote says that all these different March 25 events "are asserted in Byrhtferth's Manual", which seems to be a fairly obscure Anglo-Saxon work.

I must say I really like Tolkien's choice of setting both the End of All Things and the start of the Fourth Age on the date of so many mystical beginnings and endings, including, as Aerin tells us, "the creation and fall of Adam, the fall of Lucifer, the crossing of the Red Sea, and even the original Creation", as well as Christ's conception and death. (Of course it's totally meaningless to assign a calendar date to the original Creation, but that obviously didn't worry medieval thinkers!) And it's just like Tolkien to use an Anglo-Saxon source that was therefore probably very meaningful to him, even though he knew that this reference would be totally obscure to almost everyone.

Thanks everyone for following up on this little loose thread - the date turns out to have a very complex meaning that really adds to its significance for me!

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Aerin
Grey Havens


Jul 26 2008, 3:32am

Post #123 of 125 (325 views)
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Very cool indeed! [In reply to] Can't Post

We'd better watch out -- people might think they've stumbled into the Reading Room!


(This post was edited by Aerin on Jul 26 2008, 3:33am)


a.s.
Valinor


Jul 26 2008, 2:31pm

Post #124 of 125 (336 views)
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some of us will discuss minutiae no matter the room! :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

You can take some of us out of the RR, but you can't take the RR out of some of us.

Angelic

But seriously, this has been an interesting thread in which, once again, I'm astounded by Tolkien's depth in some things that are just about invisible to the reader (and nicely invisible).

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


shadowdog
Rohan

Jul 26 2008, 5:52pm

Post #125 of 125 (630 views)
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Catholic Mythology [In reply to] Can't Post

I went to Catholic school in the 50s ...... Yes I am that old. In reading Tolkien (didn't know he was Catholic by the way), I was struck not by parallels in LoTRs, but in his creation mythology. (Now I recognize that this is not "Catholic" or "Christian", but it is at the root of the teachings I was exposed to, and I would assume Tolkien was exposed to). The idea of a supreme being "up there" with "angels"; the rebellion of one of the "angels" and him being cast out and taking a group of angels with him; their settling on "earth" and being given dominion over it; the striving of those in "heaven" and those "down below" over the souls of man; the attempts by the "fallen ones" to control and corrupt the minds, souls, and fate of men; the concept that men were bound to the earth until the earth was destroyed at which point mankind would be raised to live eternally in "heaven" as replacements for the "fallen angels" who would be destroyed along with the earth. In addition, these men, once raised would join in the "heavenly" chorus for all eternity. All of this is consistent with my teachings in Catholic school. Now I don't know if Tolkien intentionally or unintentially built this parallel in his creation mythology, but it seems consistent to me.

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