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Lunamoth
Rohan
Jul 11 2008, 8:52pm
Post #1 of 8
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Steward vs. Regent
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What made JRRT choose to name Denethor the "Steward" of Gondor, rather than, say, "Regent." As I understood the meaning of Steward, that's a person appointed to the position of managing the household of the nobility, rather than being there in his/her stead when they're away.
Does someone have more insight, perhaps from a reading that I haven't done yet? Thanks.
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jul 12 2008, 3:48pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 11 2008, 9:12pm
Post #2 of 8
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rules on behalf of a minor, usually - or possibly on behalf of a monarch who is incapacitated through physical or mental illness (like the Prince Regent who ruled Britain when his father George III was mentally ill).
A Steward would oversee an estate (or kingdom) when the lord (or monarch) was away - for example, the Great Steward of Scotland ruled there on behalf of the King who was away in England.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Lunamoth
Rohan
Jul 11 2008, 9:22pm
Post #3 of 8
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Okay, I was going by the OED definition of a regent as "A person appointed to administer a State because the Monarch is a minor, is absent or is incapacitated." Specifically the "absent" part. And that's why I wondered.
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jul 12 2008, 3:49pm)
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Morthoron
Gondor
Jul 12 2008, 1:41am
Post #4 of 8
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Okay, I was going by the OED definition of a regent as "A person appointed to administer a State because the Monarch is a minor, is absent or is incapacitated." Specifically the "absent" part. And that's why I wondered.
The 'House' of the Stewards were as hereditary as the kings of Gondor, and held the Steward post, father to son, long before the kingship in Gondor ended with the disappearance of Eärnur. Mardil Voronwë (the Faithful), the first Ruling Steward, held the throne for the king's return (as no body was ever recovered); thus the succeeding Ruling Stewards retained their centuries-old title and remained servants, not regents (in most cases of a regency, a royal relation is implied), to the 'one true king' (whenever he should reappear). You will remember that Denethor did not sit on the Gondorion throne, rather, he sat on a simpler chair a few steps down from the throne.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH: "Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
JOHN WILKES: That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
John Wilkes (1727-1797)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 12 2008, 7:12am
Post #5 of 8
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The definition doesn't represent a vacancy.
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Okay, I was going by the OED definition of a regent as "A person appointed to administer a State because the Monarch is a minor, is absent or is incapacitated." Specifically the "absent" part. And that's why I wondered.
This definition presumes that a Monarch exists, as a minor, incapacitated, or just absent for the time being. In this case, the Monarchy is vacant; lifetimes have past, and there is no visible heir. In real-world circumstances, a Monarch would have been found among distant relations, by election, or by some other means, but in Gondor the Stewards took pride in their position, holding the throne "until the King comes again."
Sunset, July 3, 2008
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 12 2008, 10:58am
Post #6 of 8
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A regent is appointed to rule on behalf of a specific, current monarch who for some reason can't actually do the day-to-day administration of his realm (usually it's a member of the royal family - the mother of a child king, perhaps, or the son of an old, ailing king). It's usually a temporary position, to answer a specific need relating to the current monarch, and I can't imagine a situation where a regency could extend over long periods of time the way the Stewardship of Gondor does.
A steward is a second-rank official charged with administering the realm, either to assist while the monarch is present, or to take charge while his monarch happens to be away on other business. The position is long term, and was even sometimes hereditary - in fact the Stuart clan derive their name from the word 'steward', since they were the hereditary stewards of Scotland.
In Gondor, the Stewards were originally officials who assisted the king (and in fact, when the monarchy is restored under Aragorn, Faramir serves as Steward in this role). The fact that the Stewards of Gondor carried on for centuries, after the king left them in charge and never came back, shows that the kingdom has fallen into a kind of stasis from it is unable to move on. The kingdom is now being ruled by officials, who wield their authority through a king who, they claim, will one day return. The test comes when the king does return, against all odds, and the Steward is faced with ceding his authority back to the crown.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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sador
Half-elven
Jul 13 2008, 1:41pm
Post #7 of 8
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One wonders what this has to do with the Stewart dynasty
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Especially in Boromir's question to Denethor, how long does it take for a Steward to become king, and Denethor's answer that in places of lesser royalty, pretty soon; but in Gondor, thousands of years do not suffice...
Disclaimer: this is based on something Tom Shippey wrote in 'Author of the Century'. I'm not that smart.
"Don't make jokes about it," hissed Gollum. "It isn't funny. O no! Not amusing. It's not sense to try and get into Mordor at all."
"I am commanded to go to the land of Mordor, and therefore I shall go" - said Frodo.
Sam frowned... his mind was full of doubt.
------------------------------------------------------------
The Black Gate is closed,
but the Reading Room discussion is open.
July 7th-13th.
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Jul 13 2008, 5:34pm
Post #8 of 8
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as I quoted in the RR about Charles Edward Stuart:
The wild rose twines on the gateway there,
The green weed grows and the bramble clings
Barring the road to thy hearth, Traquair,
With the loyal hands of the earth green things.
The wind through the rusted iron sings.
The sun on the self-sown tangle burns,
But never a hoof on the roadway rings --
The gate is shut till the King returns.
---- W. H. Ogilvie, Till the King Returns
;)
Poor ol' Bonnie Prince Charlie!
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