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Laerasëa
Tol Eressea
Jun 23 2008, 10:35pm
Post #1 of 10
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The Taming of Smeagol: Part Two- Predicting the future
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Alright, this post is on the three big kinds of references to the future I found in this chapter: foreshadowing, irony, and oaths; for many of the questions, I wonder if the quote was true foreshadowing, or just irony? I find it difficult to tell the difference with some of these quotes...of course, they kind of overlap, so there is never a “correct” answer. Here are my nine examples, and questions to go with them.
‘I wonder’ said Frodo. ‘It is my doom, I think, to go to that shadow yonder, so that a way will be found. But will good or evil show it to me?’
1. Was it good or evil? Kind of a vague question, and I will post more specific discussions on Smeagol/Gollum later. (I will even learn how to the accent on the “e”) But it’s always an interesting thought, imo.
‘But now it isn’t possible for you and me alone to find a way back, and the Orcs are prowling on the east bank. Every day that passes is a precious day lost.’
2. I guess Frodo and Sam never did get back on their own. Did Tolkien use the word “precious" intentionally? Why?
‘So do I,’ said Frodo, ‘but {Gollum’s} not my chief trouble.’
3. Is he? I’ve always found a bit of irony in this line, for some reason. Does Frodo suspect that Gollum has yet to play some large role, as Gandalf predicted? (he does think about Gandalf words later in this chapter, before deciding not to kill Gollum)
‘I think there’s a storm coming.’
4. This was said by Sam. I don’t know why I decided to post this one, and I don’t really know if it even has any significance. It’s just always jumped out at me from the text. In context, the storm mean a darkness (thunderstorm clouds) growing from the east, where of course Mordor is, so I’ve always thought this line as kind of representative of TTT- kind of a big lead-up to ROTK. Like I said, maybe this line really doesn’t have any importance- I just wanted to include it.
‘I wish there was a clear path in front of us: then I’d go on till my legs gave way.’
5. This was said by Frodo, who later does, in fact, “go on till his legs give way.” Does this line mean that from this point, until Frodo collapses, we can still be sure that there is still some “Frodo” left in him- despite his fears, at least part of himself is unchanged?
‘We won’t!’ {Gollum} cried. ‘Not for you.’
6. He is talking about leading the hobbits to Mordor. Gollum later on agreed to lead them- did he ever do it for Frodo? Or was it all for the Ring? (another question later on his oath)
‘But you need not go all the way, not beyond the gates of this land.’
7. I’ve always enjoyed the irony of this line (Frodo talking to Gollum)- when I first read the book, I was not expecting Gollum to lead them at all. Does Frodo expect Gollum to lead him to the gates? Further? Or not as far?
‘It may twist your words. Beware!’
8. Frodo is warning Gollum on swearing on the Ring. Does the Ring twist Gollum’s oath? How did Gollum plan things- did anything go like he wanted it to, ultimately?
‘We promise, yes, I promise!’ said Gollum. ‘I will serve the master of the Precious.’
9. My favorite topic!!! (one of them, anyways) Who is the master of the Precious? Who is it according to Gollum- is it Frodo? Gollum? Sauron? (it does sound a bit like a Gollumized “lord of the rings” doesn’t it? Master of the Precious...) Why does Gollum switch from plural (we) to singular (I) in his promise? What was Gollum (or Smeagol) promising (in his mind)? Did he keep his promise?
Thoughts: there are not as many as yesterday, mostly because it much more fun to throw this topic around. How many of these lines are foreshadowing, and how many are ironic? I looked up both in a dictionary (not online)- here's what I found:
Foreshadow: to indicate beforehand
Irony:
1. A way of speaking or writing in which the ordinary meaning of the words is the opposite of the thought in the speaker's mind.
2. deliberately saying the opposite of what one means, relying on context to indicate one's real intent.
So, maybe Tolkien used irony to foreshadow events? Are there any guesses as to why he chose to do this? It certainly makes me question the values and morals of every character, and it makes me remember how easy it is to judge things without thinking- things that aren't really what they appear to be upon first sight. Is this the reaction he wanted?
Any other thoughts?
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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying. - Oscar Wilde
This is a work of fiction. All the characters in it, human and otherwise, are imaginary, excepting only certain of the fairy folk, whom it might be unwise to offend by casting doubts on their existence. Or lack thereof. -Neil Gaiman
Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. - Mark Twain
You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway. - Walt Disney
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Louis Hector Berlioz
Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. -C.S. Lewis
(This post was edited by laerasea on Jun 23 2008, 10:44pm)
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Menelwyn
Rohan
Jun 23 2008, 11:59pm
Post #2 of 10
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1. Was it good or evil? Ultimately good in the long run, I suppose, though it was evil enough along the way. Even the bad stuff seems to work out for the best.
2. I guess Frodo and Sam never did get back on their own. Did Tolkien use the word “precious" intentionally? Why?
I think he used it intentionally--that's way too significant a word for him to just throw in there. I'm not sure I can explain why in this particular context, but yes, it was deliberate.
‘I think there’s a storm coming.’
It's symbolic at any rate. Painfully obvious, but not irrelevant.
‘We won’t!’ {Gollum} cried. ‘Not for you.’
6. He is talking about leading the hobbits to Mordor. Gollum later on agreed to lead them- did he ever do it for Frodo? Or was it all for the Ring? I think he's talking to Sauron there--the sentence prior to the one you cited is "He got up and clenched his long hand into a bony fleshless knot, skaing it towards the East." Sauron wants Gollum to find the Ring for him and Gollum denies him. But he's not going to do anything for Frodo either. At some point in the story he does want to help Frodo, for a little while anyway, and I think there's something true in him when he does. But he would never have led Frodo all the way just for Frodo's sake. The Ring's dominance would have come back to him sooner or later, and it did, of course. Gollum is primarily going to act for his own sake, in the interest of getting the Ring for himself.
‘It may twist your words. Beware!’
8. Frodo is warning Gollum on swearing on the Ring. Does the Ring twist Gollum’s oath? How did Gollum plan things- did anything go like he wanted it to, ultimately?
Yes yes yes! "Smeagol will swear never, never to let Him have it." The really big irony here is that the way the Ring twists Gollum's oath will twist it against the Ring itself. Gollum is bound to keep his oath sworn by the Ring. And in Mount Doom, the only way for him to keep his oath is ultimately to destroy the Ring himself. His fall with the Ring is not deliberate, not chosen by him in that moment. Rather, in the preceding moment, Frodo has the Ring. If Gollum does not take it himself, then either Sauron will take it from Frodo (the more likely scenario, and clearly against Gollum's oath) or Frodo will somehow defeat Sauron and become a new Sauron himself. So Gollum must take it to prevent either of these from happening. But having done so, Sauron could and would still take it from Gollum unless the Ring is destroyed. And this demands Gollum's own death. So yes, the Ring twisted Gollum's oath against him--it held him to his word, yet also sent him to his death. But in doing so, the Ring led to its own destruction and Sauron's. This is great stuff.
9. My favorite topic!!! (one of them, anyways) Who is the master of the Precious? Um, all of the above? At the moment of Gollum's oath, it's presumably Frodo, even in Smeagol's own mind. (Smeagol, here, I suppose, given the use of the singular "I", which shows that Smeagol really does mean his promise at the moment.) Smeagol certainly cannot mean Sauron at the moment, having just defied him, even if Sauron is in truth the Lord of the Rings. I don't think Smeagol sees himself as "master of the Precious" at this moment, although of course he tries to argue that to himself later, claiming that if he takes the Ring, he would be the master of the Precious. By that logic, we might say that in the moment of his death, Smeagol is in fact the master of the Precious, and he is serving himself in keeping his oath. (Prior to his seizure of the Ring, Frodo has the Ring and is definitely its master in that moment, having made his claim, and--here's another irony--what Frodo really wants deep down is the destruction of the Ring, although he would not think so in that moment. Even in taking the Ring, Gollum is serving its temporary master.)
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 24 2008, 2:30am
Post #3 of 10
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‘I wonder’ said Frodo. ‘It is my doom, I think, to go to that shadow yonder, so that a way will be found. But will good or evil show it to me?’
1. Was it good or evil?
Both simultaneously. Which is sort of appropriate for a hobbitoid with a split personality.
‘But now it isn’t possible for you and me alone to find a way back, and the Orcs are prowling on the east bank. Every day that passes is a precious day lost.’
2. I guess Frodo and Sam never did get back on their own. Did Tolkien use the word “precious" intentionally? Why?
I hadn't noticed before, but you're right. I think it hints at the possibility of the Ring taking Frodo over like it did Smeagol.
‘So do I,’ said Frodo, ‘but {Gollum’s} not my chief trouble.’
3. Is he? I’ve always found a bit of irony in this line, for some reason. Does Frodo suspect that Gollum has yet to play some large role, as Gandalf predicted? (he does think about Gandalf words later in this chapter, before deciding not to kill Gollum)
Gollum is both his chief trouble and his chief salvation, interestingly enough.
‘I think there’s a storm coming.’
4. This was said by Sam. I don’t know why I decided to post this one, and I don’t really know if it even has any significance. It’s just always jumped out at me from the text.
I wonder if this is the same storm that eventually made its way to Helm's Deep?
‘I wish there was a clear path in front of us: then I’d go on till my legs gave way.’
5. This was said by Frodo, who later does, in fact, “go on till his legs give way.” Does this line mean that from this point, until Frodo collapses, we can still be sure that there is still some “Frodo” left in him- despite his fears, at least part of himself is unchanged?
What an interesting thought! Thank you for pointing that out.
‘We won’t!’ {Gollum} cried. ‘Not for you.’
6. He is talking about leading the hobbits to Mordor. Gollum later on agreed to lead them- did he ever do it for Frodo? Or was it all for the Ring? (another question later on his oath)
I always saw him as addressing Sauron. Smeagol might have done it for Frodo, at least part of the time, but Gollum only ever did it for the Ring.
‘But you need not go all the way, not beyond the gates of this land.’
7. I’ve always enjoyed the irony of this line (Frodo talking to Gollum)- when I first read the book, I was not expecting Gollum to lead them at all. Does Frodo expect Gollum to lead him to the gates? Further? Or not as far?
I think that he understood that Gollum would want to stay close to the Ring, come what may. That's what he would want, in Gollum's position.
‘It may twist your words. Beware!’
8. Frodo is warning Gollum on swearing on the Ring. Does the Ring twist Gollum’s oath? How did Gollum plan things- did anything go like he wanted it to, ultimately?
Yes, it twisted his oath, right from the start, with the tricky loophole wording. Frodo, Gollum, and the Ring all have (or will have) different ideas as to who the Master of the Precious is. As for planning, I think Gollum is just winging it at this point. I don't think he had any real plan until Cirith Ungol, which didn't actually work out the way he'd planned.
‘We promise, yes, I promise!’ said Gollum. ‘I will serve the master of the Precious.’
9. My favorite topic!!! (one of them, anyways) Who is the master of the Precious? Who is it according to Gollum- is it Frodo? Gollum? Sauron? (it does sound a bit like a Gollumized “lord of the rings” doesn’t it? Master of the Precious...) Why does Gollum switch from plural (we) to singular (I) in his promise? What was Gollum (or Smeagol) promising (in his mind)? Did he keep his promise?
I think that Smeagol comes briefly to the forefront here, suddenly inspired, genuinely longing for something that he could get from Frodo besides the Ring--that's what the "I" means to me, anyway. As to what he was promising in his mind, which mind? I'm not sure either of them knew. Beyond that, Menelwyn's brilliant answer surpasses anything that I could come up with.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 24 2008, 6:06am
Post #4 of 10
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1. Was it good or evil?
In the end, it was good. But it was touch and go there for a while.
2. I guess Frodo and Sam never did get back on their own. Did Tolkien use the word “precious" intentionally? Why?
I'm game, but I don't see the significance of the use of the word "precious." Perhaps someone can explain it to me.
3. Is he? I’ve always found a bit of irony in this line, for some reason. Does Frodo suspect that Gollum has yet to play some large role, as Gandalf predicted? (he does think about Gandalf words later in this chapter, before deciding not to kill Gollum)
Yes, Frodo is convinced that Gollum has a role to play, and quite fatalistic about allowing him to play that role.
4. This was said by Sam. I don’t know why I decided to post this one, and I don’t really know if it even has any significance. It’s just always jumped out at me from the text. In context, the storm mean a darkness (thunderstorm clouds) growing from the east, where of course Mordor is, so I’ve always thought this line as kind of representative of TTT- kind of a big lead-up to ROTK. Like I said, maybe this line really doesn’t have any importance- I just wanted to include it.
I addressed the significance of the storm in the last thread. I do think a storm coming out of Mordor with a Nazgul riding it is quite significant.
5. This was said by Frodo, who later does, in fact, “go on till his legs give way.” Does this line mean that from this point, until Frodo collapses, we can still be sure that there is still some “Frodo” left in him- despite his fears, at least part of himself is unchanged?
I don't read that much significance into it. Frodo seems frustrated that his task is not only hard, but long.
6. He is talking about leading the hobbits to Mordor. Gollum later on agreed to lead them- did he ever do it for Frodo? Or was it all for the Ring? (another question later on his oath)
It was all for Gollum, really, and no one else, not even the Ring, which wanted nothing to do with Gollum any more. Gollum did not lead them to Mordor, but to Shelob.
7. I’ve always enjoyed the irony of this line (Frodo talking to Gollum)- when I first read the book, I was not expecting Gollum to lead them at all. Does Frodo expect Gollum to lead him to the gates? Further? Or not as far?
Frodo expects Gollum to lead him to the gates.
8. Frodo is warning Gollum on swearing on the Ring. Does the Ring twist Gollum’s oath? How did Gollum plan things- did anything go like he wanted it to, ultimately?
Gollum twists Gollum's oath when he betrays Frodo to Shelob. The Ring twists Gollum's oath when it threatens Gollum on the steps of Mount Doom:
Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire spoke a commanding voice. ‘Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.’
I agree that the Ring sealed its own doom by so binding Gollum.
9. My favorite topic!!! (one of them, anyways) Who is the master of the Precious? Who is it according to Gollum- is it Frodo? Gollum? Sauron? (it does sound a bit like a Gollumized “lord of the rings” doesn’t it? Master of the Precious...) Why does Gollum switch from plural (we) to singular (I) in his promise? What was Gollum (or Smeagol) promising (in his mind)? Did he keep his promise?
It's Frodo. Gollum switches to the singular to formalize his oath. In his mind Gollum was equivocating, a fine art back in the day when people were reluctant to simply break their oaths. Shelob did not kill her victims, and so she would not kill Frodo. Perhaps Gollum even imagined rescuing Frodo from Shelob -- after Sam's tragic end, of course, and after Gollum took back the Ring.
So, maybe Tolkien used irony to foreshadow events? Are there any guesses as to why he chose to do this?
I'm not sure I buy your premise. Foreshadowing, certainly, but irony? The irony comes later. Perhaps I'm not sure what you are getting at.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 24 2008, 7:28am
Post #6 of 10
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1. Was it good or evil?
Evil. But, as Gandalf says in 'The Siege of Gondor':
Let us remember that a traitor may betry himself and do good that he does not itend.
2. I guess Frodo and Sam never did get back on their own. Did Tolkien use the word “precious" intentionally? Why?
Irony, I think. It's actually a precious day gained. Because of this delay, Frodo will meet Faramir and actually march through the southren road while Haradrim companies aren't using it.
But more than that, with each passing day Sauron gets more and more involved with Saruman's treachery. It another day the precious is lost, and Sauron is following a false trail.
3. Is he? I’ve always found a bit of irony in this line, for some reason. Does Frodo suspect that Gollum has yet to play some large role, as Gandalf predicted? (he does think about Gandalf words later in this chapter, before deciding not to kill Gollum)
I think he does. Three days ago, on Amon Hen, Frodo "recalled and pondered all that he could remember of Gandalf's words". With Gollum following them all the time, he wouldn't have forgotten those words.
4. This was said by Sam. I don’t know why I decided to post this one, and I don’t really know if it even has any significance. It’s just always jumped out at me from the text. In context, the storm mean a darkness (thunderstorm clouds) growing from the east, where of course Mordor is, so I’ve always thought this line as kind of representative of TTT- kind of a big lead-up to ROTK. Like I said, maybe this line really doesn’t have any importance- I just wanted to include it.
You're right, it's foreshadowing of the whole of book IV (compare to chapters 36-38 of 'Watership Down').
And I liked the use which was made of this storm in the movies.
5. This was said by Frodo, who later does, in fact, “go on till his legs give way.” Does this line mean that from this point, until Frodo collapses, we can still be sure that there is still some “Frodo” left in him- despite his fears, at least part of himself is unchanged?
Did you mean in 'Mount Doom'? Nice! But in that case, not another irony: after Frodo's legs gave way (actually, after Sam's back did) - they suddenly found a clear path before them.
6. He is talking about leading the hobbits to Mordor. Gollum later on agreed to lead them- did he ever do it for Frodo? Or was it all for the Ring? (another question later on his oath)
No, he is re-living his interrogation by Sauron, when he promised to search for the Ring (consider the Slinker-Stinker debate next chapter). And then he agreed to lead them, but for himself - or so he thought. Did he think he fooled Sauron? I guess not.
7. I’ve always enjoyed the irony of this line (Frodo talking to Gollum)- when I first read the book, I was not expecting Gollum to lead them at all. Does Frodo expect Gollum to lead him to the gates? Further? Or not as far?
Well, he didn't. He went as far as the high pass before Shelob's tunnel.
8. Frodo is warning Gollum on swearing on the Ring. Does the Ring twist Gollum’s oath? How did Gollum plan things- did anything go like he wanted it to, ultimately?
I'm not sure I've understood your question. But please note that Gollum did fulfill Sauron's orders (mentioned next chapter) - he did find Baggins, and delivered him unspoiled to the Orcs (without Sam's intervention, Shagrat would probably bring the limp Frodo to the Tower when She wasn't looking, but with the Ring).
9. My favorite topic!!! (one of them, anyways) Who is the master of the Precious? Who is it according to Gollum- is it Frodo? Gollum? Sauron? (it does sound a bit like a Gollumized “lord of the rings” doesn’t it? Master of the Precious...)
Sauron. To quote 'Riddles in the Dark':
But who knows how Gollum came by that present, ages ago in the old days when such rings were still at large in the world? Perhaps even the Master who ruled them could not have said. And to quote Gandalf, in 'The Shadow of the Past':
The Ring was trying to get back to its master... So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Frodo should have remembered this. And taking Gollum at his word, and assuming "the master of the precious" means him, seems like hubris, doesn't it? A bad sign.
Why does Gollum switch from plural (we) to singular (I) in his promise? What was Gollum (or Smeagol) promising (in his mind)?
That depends on how you understand the Smeagol-Gollum split personality.
And your take on this switch is interesting - in 'The Black Gate is Closed', Frodo assumes that when Smeagol says 'I' he is more truthful than usual.
Did he keep his promise?
Well, he did fulfill Sauron's orders - not that he intended to, but he did.
So, maybe Tolkien used irony to foreshadow events? Are there any guesses as to why he chose to do this?
In 'Author of the Century', Tom Shippey distinguishes between irony and anti-irony, defining the former as a case where false hope gets twisted, and the latter as a case in which erronous despair is proven wrong. He claims Tolkien uses both in LotR, in abundance.
The obvious answer is to show the limits of our human sight; our hopes, fears and despairs are founded on partial impressions. To that, he adds the belief that moral acts ultimately have good results, even if we can't (or won't ever) see them. This seems a concise summary of one of the basic assumptions of Religious doctrine.
"You could too, if you kept your head and followed me carefully" - Frodo
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jun 24 2008, 9:44am
Post #7 of 10
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but after the passage of the Marshes, if we go by this:
"We wants it! But" - and here there was a long pause, as if a new thought had wakened. "Not yet, eh? Perhaps not. She might help. She might, yes."
That's at the end of the Passage of the Marshes chapter, when Sam wakes to overhear Smeagol and Gollum debating, the day before they arrive at the Black Gates.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jun 24 2008, 9:45am)
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 24 2008, 1:34pm
Post #8 of 10
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He may not have guessed at Frodo's purpose yet.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:38am
Post #9 of 10
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It’s not just Gollum who shows them the way.
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They escape the Emyn Muil without his help, by following the gully to the right, hoping that it will lead them out.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:38am
Post #10 of 10
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I hadn’t thought of that: Frodo, Sam and Gollum follow the road south just after one Southron army takes it to the Black Gates, and just before another is assaulted by Faramir’s troops.
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