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kabes
Registered User
Jun 1 2008, 12:50pm
Post #27 of 48
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Well, PG-13 doesn't mean gore necessarily. Other things factor into ratings too like how "scary" the movie is and violence without gore.
I understand your concern since the Hobbit is considered a children's book but GDT and PJ aren't going to want to make a PG movie and I personally wouldn't want it either.
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overlithe64
Rivendell
Jun 1 2008, 3:11pm
Post #28 of 48
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At least here in the US, The films will probably maintain the ratings the LOTR films were released with.
The phrase Epic battle scenes comes to mind, as does suspense.
Yes the Hobbit was originally was for JRRs kids...but a story/ book or otherwise you can stop and close the book if things get too intense...With Film...well obviously things go on, whether the viewer is ready to digest more or not. Just for that fact alone I think it will remain in the PG 13 realm.
I am not obsessed... If I am, I am in excellent company.
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Feyrband
Registered User
Jun 1 2008, 8:28pm
Post #29 of 48
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These 2 directors have a history for good gorey violence.
GDT - Mimic, Blade 2, Pan's Labyrinth
Jackson - Dead/Alive & Bad Taste
Thats why Jackson pushed PG13 and thats why with GDT on board it will be pushed again- which I am completely for.
You won't see these go R, would kill the box-office. And comparing LOTR to other popular fantasy novels it would rank about PG13. Harry Potter or Narnia more PG. Conan & Kull or Song of Ice and Fire being more R. (I wouldn't mind seeing films of the latter)
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Sunflower
Valinor
Jun 2 2008, 12:36am
Post #30 of 48
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Which is? I've never heard of this. Are they novels?
Conan was done in 1981, with, IMO, fantastic results. Basil Poladorous' score is still one of my all-time favorite film scores...lush, haunting, evocative...with scintillating choruses in Latin and High (older) German....the sequel, though, was unfortunately a bit on the lackluster side.
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Feyrband
Registered User
Jun 2 2008, 1:31am
Post #31 of 48
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Robert Howard wrote novels/short stories about Conan the Cimmerian and Kull the Conquerer in late 20s early 30s, one of the founders of the genre. Song of Ice and Fire is a series of novels written by George R. R. Martin in late 90s. There are still 2 more books to be released to finish the series.
Was saying when you read these books, they come off as an R movie. (which Conan was, even if horribly inaccurate)
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merklynn
Lorien
Jun 2 2008, 3:52am
Post #32 of 48
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I agree with you there. Conan the Barbarian has one of the best film scores of all time. Thee sequel mostly rehashed the original score and cheapened it in places by speeding up the main theme and using what sounded like a smaller orchestra and cheaper production equipment. The second film over all was a complete cartoon compared to the original much more serious effort.
Kind of like Indy 4.... ;-)
Howard Shore's score for Silence of the Lambs I found to be intrusive and tacky in places, pulling me out of the illusion of reality and reminding me that it was a film. But since the LOTR films I am a Howard Shore convert, and now admire him alongside, if not above John Williams... Oh heck, alright, Shore is better than Williams. I said it.
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Elven
Valinor
Jun 2 2008, 8:45am
Post #33 of 48
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Isn't that a chicken & pasta dish? ;-D //
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Were off to Hobbiton finally!
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
(This post was edited by Elven on Jun 2 2008, 8:47am)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 2 2008, 12:45pm
Post #34 of 48
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I agree with N.E. Brigand. Pg-13 for film one seems excessive
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Now, I am no lover of our ratings system here in America. The fact that a hint at sexuality or more than a spare second of rear nudity will likely garner an R rating when limb amputations might not speaks volumes to how warped our social values are. The bonds that Puritanism laid, like Morgoth's, are very strong.
All that said, you know full well there isn't going to be a bit of sensuality in the Hobbit films, save perhaps that elves are pretty, and maybe Arwen will wear a gauzy gown.
The idea that scary monsters will get the pg-13 is also bunk. Consider, Neverending story had a giant were-wolf, and a fairly realistic looking one at that. Legend had a marvelously malevolent arch-demon. Willow had fairly convincing violence, and some blood. Now granted, those movies were done in the 80s and America has in some ways become more prudish about certain things than less since then, yet. . . Harry Potter II had giant spiders and an enormous serpentine creature who was stabbed through the throat. . . also blood, Narnia had some ugly buggers running about. . . The point is, a hideous monster or set thereof will not equal pg-13 and certainly not "hard" pg-13.
The only thing that would add up to that is graphic violence, and I think THe Hobbit, the first one in particular, would be well served to avoid going over the top in that direction. I have children and a godson whom I am taking to see the first film, hell or high water. Millions of parents are reading the Hobbit to their children right now, with the intent of taking them to see this, and millions of parents who aren't reading it will want to take their kids anyway.
Does that mean all dark moments should be avoided? Of Course not. The Hobbit should be a "hard" PG. But it should not feature grilsly decapitations and the like. Those can be hard enough on adults, let alone children. Darkstone must know that I am 1000% for Gandalf showing off his Fire Enchantments, as in the book. . . but there is a difference between showing a warg engulfed in fire and rolling or running for water, and showing a warg burning unto death and beginning to melt. . . the former should be shown in this film . . . the latter should not. There will be violence and death, but this should not become a gore fest for the orgasmic and sadistic pleasure of adolescent and post-adolescents who just love to see blood and splatter.
I am not seeking the Hobbit to be on par in child appeal to say, THe Labyrinth. BUt neither should it be 300 minus the sex. To turn the Hobbit into some overly dark, overly gorey grindhouse film, would ruin the spirit of the book. SOme of you actually seem to be arguing that The Hobbit should be darker than The Fellowship film. That is just crazy talk, if I may borrow a Homer Simpson coinage. It would be a travesty if the most prominent headline about the Hobbit is "Don't take your 9 year old to see this macabre movie."
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 2 2008, 1:45pm
Post #35 of 48
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... came to dislike the childish tone of The Hobbit. Would it be wrong for a filmmaker to come to the same conclusion that the author himself came to?
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 2 2008, 3:45pm
Post #36 of 48
(468 views)
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...was unable to do anything about it, at least to the satisfaction of a reader he trusted so well that he abandoned efforts to rework The Hobbit.
I haven't read John Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit yet. Do you enjoy the two rewritten chapters more than The Hobbit as it was conceived?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us May 26-Jun. 1 for "The Road to Isengard".
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 2 2008, 4:16pm
Post #37 of 48
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...was unable to do anything about it, at least to the satisfaction of a reader he trusted so well that he abandoned efforts to rework The Hobbit.
I haven't read John Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit yet. Do you enjoy the two rewritten chapters more than The Hobbit as it was conceived?
It's difficult to judge based on such a small sample, but yes, I do think that it is an improvement, and that had he followed through with the plan it would have resulted in a superior product.
It's even more difficult to judge exactly what happened, given the scarcity of information. We don't even know who the "friend" was that he showed the revisions to, only that she is/was female. And it's not that she didn't like the revsions; she did. It's just that she said it wasn't "The Hobbit". My best guess is that Tolkien abandoned the extensive revisions that he set out about because he concluded that the book was so firmly set in so many minds that he really couldn't get away with changing it so radically, much as he wanted to. And then some years later when he was asked to revise it in order to protect the copyright, he apparently couldn't find the 1960 revisions that he started, and ended up doing much less extensive changes (which he probably would have done anyway, although he might have incorporated some of the1960 revisions).
I would argue, however (although many would disagree) that a filmmaker should not be as limited as Tolkien himself apparently felt he was, by the form that the book ended up taking. I personally would welcome a film of The Hobbit that stayed true to the thematic spirit of the book, but deviated some from the more childish aspects. One of the things that I took away from reading Rateliff's book (which you really need to do, my friend), is how much MORE epic The Hobbit really is beneath that juvenile exterior than I had previously realized. I would not mind at all if del Toro focuses on that aspect.
No, I would definitely not mind that.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 2 2008, 8:39pm
Post #38 of 48
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Are the 1960 chapters funny? //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us May 26-Jun. 1 for "The Road to Isengard".
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 2 2008, 9:26pm
Post #39 of 48
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But you should really read them yourself. 
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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DiveTwin
Rohan
Jun 2 2008, 10:32pm
Post #40 of 48
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Personally, I don't want "The Hobbit" to be childlike, but maybe not in the same way some of you are thinking.
When I think of "child-like", I think of Lucas or Spielberg-type of movies. The movies (like Indy 4 or any of the Star Wars prequels) seem too cartoonish to me and you never really get emotions going in those kind of movies. They look and feel like a live-action cartoon ... so how can you care about the characters? The dialouge is usually written with some kind of "wink" to the audience; I can just hear that deep Movietone voice saying "join us for this rip-roaring, action adventure!!!". Ugh. Double Ugh. Which makes for a great summer popcorn movie but not a movie with heart.
No, what I mean is that it's simply grounded in realism, as PJ did with LOTR. You know the feeling when you actually read the books before they became movies? When you read, you tend to picture yourself in that situation. You feel with the characters in the story. You can grasp the tension of not knowing what's going to happen or how it would play out. You could see yourself in Minus Morgel wondering what to do. It becomes all real to you when you read it.
Which is what PJ captured in his films - that sense that we're in this with the characters. That it feels real, the emotions are real, the way characters react to events feels real, etc.. Not cracking jokes as they are about to die (i.e. Indy or Star Wars).
To me, "The Hobbit" will be both more innocent and dark/scary as necessary - whatever the story actually calls for. I think GDT meant that this won't really be a child-like movie, but if you filmed it as if you were there, you'd see that Hobbiton is light and cheerier in the days before LOTR, but not necessarily childlike. And because GDT is a fan of the overall arc of Bilbo going from pampered, safe hobbit to one that sees how serious life in Middle Earth can become, I think the scarier scenes will also be filmed with that sense of realism, that sense that you're there and you're in danger also - and what would you actually do?
For example, when Bilbo has to fight the spiders, he really has to summon great courage truly for the first time in his life. How does one feel when they are really thrust in that situation for the first time ever? Some directors would turn him into an action hero or have the spiders do wacky pratfalls ala Jar Jar Binks or the like. That stuff makes me think "child-like" so the kids will giggle. Plu-lease!!!
I think PJ and GDT will portray the battle within Bilbo to allow him to find that courage and save his friends - that will be the focus. You'll see it in his eyes, his face, his mannerisms when he realizes he's alone in Mirkwood and it's up to him. And that's an example of "grounded in realism" that also uses PJ's world built in LOTR as canon, just as GDT said that it would.
When I go back and watch LOTR's, most of time now I look at the reaction shots. The argument with Gandalf and Bilbo over the ring initially. The looks on Gandalf's and Frodo's face when they discuss the fate of the ring (Frodo: "but it cannot stay in the Shire!" Gandalf: "no ... no it can't") and realize what Frodo has to do. The terror on everyone's face (especially Gandalf and Legolas) in the Mines of Moria when the Balrog is approaching and Gandalf realizes what it is.
All of that puts you there with the characters. If GDT does the same with "The Hobbit" I think we'll get some great light moments at the beginning and I think we'll feel Middle Earth become a more serious, scary and dangerous place as the movie progresses. And you'll feel all those things because you're in it with the characters.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you ground it in realism, it will be a story that children will enjoy without making it a "children's flick". And just like the book/story does itself, it becomes darker and darker. As dark as ROTK? Probably not that - but I think GDT will show how dark things can become when you're thrust into greed, danger and wars, again showing the full arc that Bilbo will be on when presented with the world outside of the Shire.
"Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey"
(This post was edited by DiveTwin on Jun 2 2008, 10:34pm)
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Jun 3 2008, 1:10am
Post #41 of 48
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most likely that The Hobbit and Film2 will each be a PG-13. Probably the trick will be to avoid an R rating with GdT doing the directing. Not because of his films, but because he hasn't ventured into these waters before. I really don't see a problem with it ultimately, however, since his Hellboy pics are rated PG-13.
If The Hobbit starts out like the book, it will be a simple story and easily be a PG rating. But if the film progresses like the book, I can't see how they can avoid the PG-13 (hard or not) with the attack of Smaug and the Battle of the Five Armies.
 
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Woodyend
Gondor
Jun 3 2008, 1:19am
Post #42 of 48
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they leave out old Smaug eating the six ponies. I can take violence of people better than I can on animals.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!
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merklynn
Lorien
Jun 3 2008, 3:49am
Post #43 of 48
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I agree with DiveTwin. I think the film's theme should reflect Bilbo's journey, starting out peaceful and serene, and slowly getting darker as it goes along. Bilbo grows and matures in terms of bravery and independence in a world outside of his protected little bubble. So I'd like to think that the film will mesh with the more serious nature of LOTR, while retaining the charm and warmth that Bilbo and Gandalf bring to the grim Dwarves. Let's not tra la la about it. This is an opporunity to follow the direction that J.R.R. Tolkien seems to have wanted to have taken in his efforts to revise his work. He clearly wasn't happy with it to rewrite the first two chapters, and be willing to accept the offer to revise the enter book. So in the spirit of the more mature theme I think GDT should feel he has room to flex more. Again, doing so without forgetting the inherent charm and warmth of Bilbo and his everyman POV.
I wish we could get some more teasers from Guillermo, since I'm nearly exhausted at this stage from what little scraps we have right now. I need to know more.... but not in the same way Cate Blanchett needed to know more in Indy 4....
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Sunflower
Valinor
Jun 3 2008, 4:26am
Post #44 of 48
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when you consider how much (according to the PL DVD commentary) Guillermo Del Toro hates working with horses, I'm sure we'll have at least a hint of that scene, unfortunately....nothing onscreen, of course, but maybe shadows on a rock wall or something
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Sunflower
Valinor
Jun 3 2008, 4:27am
Post #45 of 48
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I was not aware of this. Guess I'll have to add it to my reading list! Fascinating stuff.....
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Sunflower
Valinor
Jun 3 2008, 4:35am
Post #46 of 48
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that Shore could come up with something better than Schindler's List, though; IMO one of the greatest film scores ever written. Maybe something as good, but not better. He is NOT a better composer than Williams, but he will be approaching the status of :"just as good." if these 2 Hobbit scores are as good as the LOTR ones are. The deceptive simplicity of Schindler's List is its token of greatness...William's' ability to downsize himself, so to speak, and strip himself to the bones, laying bare something of staggering emotional power, even without the context of the film. Some of Shore's LOTR melodies are that good (IMO, the Rohan Theme is one of the best pieces of film music of the last 20 yrs, and there is an sbsoltely heart-stoppingly lovely passage at the end scene of Gangs of New York, that is among his best ever work).
We must remember that Williams's legend is borne out by the huge variety of great scores. Gilligan's Island, the Olympic Theme....and these are his throwaway scribblings.
But to get back to Conan....Subotai's Theme is one of my favorite film cues, EVER. Go and re-watch the scenes of Conan and Subutoi running side by side across fields and desert, with that glorious, rollicking, majestic music, and tell yourself that Peter Jackson did NOT have those scenes in mind when he shot the Three Hunters running across the NZ hills. I think PJ even refed Conan in an interview at one point, along with Braveheart and Saving Private Ryan. Many is the time I have decided to run across a field when I found myself in one, with Subotai's Theme running through my head with me.
(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jun 3 2008, 4:44am)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 3 2008, 12:39pm
Post #47 of 48
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to garner PG-13 it would have to really push rather far into the dark
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A werewolf, and a host of wraith like creatures failed to push the third Harry Potter film into PG-13 territory. Battles have been filmed in many movies without crossing that line. A hard PG sounds mopre appropriate, perhaps a light PG-13, but a hard 13 that skims the R line. No way, not for Hobbit anyway. THat is propably the right tone for the second film, but not the first. To make ita hard PG-13 would make it as dark if not darker than the second half of Fellowship. This movie should be more John Howe, Michael Hague, than the grimmer mood of Alan Lee, though Lee should be involved. It should be more evocative of the first half of Fellowship, than of The Two Towers. THe sense of wonder should be very much present, and the fusion of dark and cheery is what made Fellowship a more wonder evocative film than The Two Towers. There was action and fell creatures in both, but the atmosphere of the first was not so grim. I am not saying at all that Hobbit should not have intense moments, but the focus on intensity should not be so heavy that the wonder and moments of cheer are forgotten, and I think grisly decapitation scenes and the like should probably be avoided.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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merklynn
Lorien
Jun 3 2008, 1:14pm
Post #48 of 48
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Shore, Pouledouris, Horner, Williams...
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I know exactly the piece you are talking about as I've listened to Basil Pouledouris' score a thousand times and never tired of it. I bought the CD of the score back in the mid-90s, during a period of collecting movie soundtracks, like James Horner's Krull score, Danny Elfman's Batman, Alan Silvestri's 13th Warrior, and of course John William's Star Wars works. Of the Conan: The Barbarian score, its hard to pick a favorite, but I do love the Battle of the Mounds because of how it builds emotionally at the beginning into the action packed, triumphant moment of vengeance. The Wheel of Pain, the haunting moment of discovering the sword, wifeing, the orgy, and of course the death of Thulsa Doom are all brilliant pieces of music. Listening to Basil Pouledouris' score alone, without the movie, makes for a far better a version of Conan's tale than the film itself could ever have achieved. I do enjoy Conan: The Barbarian, and it IS a very good film. But I always find myself slightly disappointed when I watch the film after several years of listening to the score in between and realize that the music has lifted the film to a height that it never truly was. The score far exceeds the film. IMO.
I find Howard Shore's LOTR work to have a similar effect, except that IMO, the film is not far behind the music. Visually, LOTR is a treat that has almost as much room and imagination as the music to paint its pictures thanks to the technical wizardry available to PJ and PJs own wonderfully epic imagination.
I have fallen out of love with John Williams, despite his impressive resume and the power that several of his scores still hold over me. It was my most recent listening of Shore's LOTR score that seemed to hit the right nerve and awaken me to how good he has become. Because, in all honesty (and I hope Shore never reads this...) I thought his score for Silence of the Lambs was honestly pretty intrusive and an uncomfortable fit.
I don't even remember what this thread is about anymore! LOL
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