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Milady
Rivendell
May 29 2008, 3:00am
Post #1 of 15
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The Road to Isengard part 3
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Now to one of my favorite parts of this chapter, the Glittering Caves!
They ride through the forest for a while, with Legolas getting increasingly antsy. He tells Gimli they’re the strangest trees he’s ever seen, and he wishes he had time to walk through them and understand them. Gimli, however, is much less enthusiastic, and suggests that their thought is filled with hatred of all that goes on two legs, and all their thought is of destruction.
A. Why does Gimli think this way? If they hated all that went on two legs, would the trees have allowed the riders to pass this far?
Legolas corrects him, saying they only hate the Orcs, and that they probably come from Fangorn—which Gimli counters with the statement that Fangorn is the most perilous forest. He’s grateful for their help, but he’ll never love them. Legolas can call them beautiful if he wants: Gimli has seen something far more beautiful.
Here Gimli gets emotional. “Caves, they say! Caves! Holes to fly to in time of war, to store fodder in! My good Legolas, do you know that the caverns of Helm’s Deep are vast and beautiful?”
B. Do you think the Rohirrim ever noticed the beauty of the caves, or is Gimli right in saying they only think of them as needed? Or is the beauty such that only Dwarves would notice it, because only they notice the subtleties of stone? Would the Rohirrim need Gimli to point it out before they noticed the beauty?
Legolas jokes here that he would pay to not have to see them.
C. Why does Legolas say that?
Gimli chides him for it, then goes on to compare the caves to the halls of Mirkwood: “They are but hovels compare with the caverns I have seen here…” They are great halls with oils of water, as fair as Kheled-zâram in the starlight. When the torches are lit, gems and crystals and veins of ore are visible in the walls. The light shines through “…folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the hands of Queen Galadriel.”
D. Gimli now holds Galadriel as his standard for beauty. Any thoughts?
There are pale columns of many colors, shaped into ‘dreamlike forms;’ and from the ceiling hang ‘wings, ropes, curtains fine as frozen clouds; spears, banners, pinnacles of suspended places.’ These are reflected in still lakes, and in the reflections on can see cities that Durin himself could have hardly imagined. When a drop of water falls, “…the round wrinkles in the glass make all the towers bend and waver like weeds and corals in a grotto of the sea.”
E. What does Gimli, and other dwarves in general, know of the sea? Has he ever seen the things he compares the caves to, or has he had descriptions? If so, from whom?
The caverns are numerous, and Gimli was sad to leave them. Legolas wishes Gimli good luck so he can return and see them again, but cautions him not to tell too many dwarves. Gimli disagrees, saying nobody could possibly want to mine those caves. He describes them some more, and Legolas is amazed to hear Gimli talk like that. He makes the famous deal, that Gimli will go with him to Fangorn and Legolas will come with Gimli to the caves. Gimli’s not happy, but he agrees. Legolas asks how far it is to Isengard: Fifteen leagues as Saruman’s crows fly, is Gandalf’s response.
F. Why the reference to Saruman?
Gandalf says they won’t ride all the way that night. Gimli asks what they’ll find when they get there, and Gandalf says he’s not sure. “Yet I think that you will not say that the journey was in vain—not though the Glittering Caves of Aglarond be left behind.”
G. The name suggests a deeper history that Gandalf knows of. What is this history (or is it explained somewhere I don’t know about?)
I'll be leading the Reading Room discussion of The Two Towers: The Road to Isengard on the week of May 26--June 1. Be sure to stop by!
Has anyone ever wondered what would have happened if Smaug had ate Bilbo, and therefore the ring? It would be interesting to see Sauron send orcs to go diving for the Ring.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 29 2008, 3:41am
Post #2 of 15
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A. Why does Gimli think this way? If they hated all that went on two legs, would the trees have allowed the riders to pass this far?
No doubt he grew up on dark rumors of what happened to the dwarves that sacked Doriath. Considering also how travelers will chat along a journey, he has no doubt heard Merry and Pippin recount their adventure with Old Man Willow as well, who really did hate all that went on two legs. And then there's the factor that by excluding his wife from their making, Aule made dwarves deficient in understanding the mysteries of nature. After all that, there's no use expecting logic of the poor dwarf.
B. Do you think the Rohirrim ever noticed the beauty of the caves, or is Gimli right in saying they only think of them as needed? Or is the beauty such that only Dwarves would notice it, because only they notice the subtleties of stone? Would the Rohirrim need Gimli to point it out before they noticed the beauty?
If they didn' t notice the beauty, they wouldn't call them Glittering.
C. Why does Legolas say that?
Because he's a smart alec, and he might still entertain some lingering prejudices about anything lovely to a dwarf couldn't possibly stand up to elvish standards. Even after someone forges a friendship transcending prejudice, the assumptions don't all disappear overnight. Only years of learning to listen to and understand the Other can accomplish that.
D. Gimli now holds Galadriel as his standard for beauty. Any thoughts?
He might be further along understanding elves than Legolas is in understanding dwarves. Then again, he does have that unreasonable bias against trees...
E. What does Gimli, and other dwarves in general, know of the sea? Has he ever seen the things he compares the caves to, or has he had descriptions? If so, from whom?
At this stage in Dwarvish history, their chief colony is in Ered Luin, the Blue Mountains, which stand close by the sea. Some of the foothills might even be close enough to the shore to harbor grottoes. Gimli's father, and presumably Gimli himself, lived for awhile in Ered Luin before reclaiming the Lonely Mountain from Smaug.
F. Why the reference to Saruman?
Because Gandalf really is anxious about spying crows flying back to Saruman.
G. The name suggests a deeper history that Gandalf knows of. What is this history (or is it explained somewhere I don’t know about?)
I almost recall something, but it might just be a trick of my imagination...
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Beren IV
Gondor
May 29 2008, 7:36am
Post #3 of 15
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A. Why does Gimli think this way? If they hated all that went on two legs, would the trees have allowed the riders to pass this far?
"On two legs" refers to those animals that cut down trees, i.e. humans and their kind. I'm sure it does not apply to birds, who are also two-legged.
The idea is simple: humanoid beings have wronged the forest in the past, and the trees want revenge. I am certain that the trees are well aware that these four-legged animals are carrying the two-legged creatures they bear a grudge against.
B. Do you think the Rohirrim ever noticed the beauty of the caves, or is Gimli right in saying they only think of them as needed? Or is the beauty such that only Dwarves would notice it, because only they notice the subtleties of stone? Would the Rohirrim need Gimli to point it out before they noticed the beauty?
What it all comes down to is this: appreciation of nature. Nature is beautiful. There are some people who realize this, but generally people who care mainly about their livelihoods and don't have time or energy to care about anything else tend to overlook this fact. Yes, people make parks and plant trees and such, but they don't really stop and think about it. The Rohirrim use the Glittering Caves as a place to store goods and to hide when under assault. It's not something they use as a park or a museum of nature's beauty.
Gimli, on the other hand, is a dwarf, and dwarves do appreciate natural beauty. The major difference between elves and dwarves in this regard is the type of natural beauty they particularly appreciate: elves like animate things, dwarves are more impressed by beautiful but inanimate things. They don't take them for granted the way humans do.
C. Why does Legolas say that?
Teasing - Legolas is pulling Gimli's chain. As Gimli momentarily points out, Legolas lives in a cave, so he can't dislike them that much.
D. Gimli now holds Galadriel as his standard for beauty. Any thoughts?
Gimli has recognized that living things can be beautiful also. Still, that it would be Galadriel in particular is a little surprising (I hadn't noticed that before!).
E. What does Gimli, and other dwarves in general, know of the sea? Has he ever seen the things he compares the caves to, or has he had descriptions? If so, from whom?
See Dreamdeer's post.
F. Why the reference to Saruman?
That's where they're going... Saruman hasn't had all his teeth pulled yet.
G. The name suggests a deeper history that Gandalf knows of. What is this history (or is it explained somewhere I don’t know about?)
The suggestion of a deeper history and the caves having an Elvish name is intriguing, isn't it!
However, as for what Gimli will find in Isengard, the answer is simple and obvious: Merry and Pippin!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 29 2008, 7:45am
Post #4 of 15
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Elves do trees, dwarves do caves.
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That's just the way they are. It's like the City Mouse and the Country Mouse. And they're obviously enjoying ribbing each other about it, too.
Tolkien has probably seen the caves in Cheddar, Somerset. Another spectacular cavern is in Luray, Virginia.
I suspect the Rohirrim appreciate the beauty of the caves more than Gimli gives them credit for; it's just that last night they had other priorities, like staying alive.
It's hard to imagine Gimli would know anything at all about "grottos in the sea". But he's probably heard tales.
Gandalf mentions Saruman because he's getting their minds focused on the "parley" to come.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 29 2008, 7:48am
Post #5 of 15
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Helm's Deep was originally built by Gondorians, as I recall (renamed much later), which would explain the Elvish name.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 29 2008, 3:03pm
Post #6 of 15
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You are absolutely correct! Tolkien did indeed visit the caves at Cheddar (I believe during his honeymoon) and later wrote that they were the inspiration for the Glittering Caves of Aglarond.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 29 2008, 4:34pm
Post #7 of 15
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A. Why does Gimli think this way?
Because they do.
If they hated all that went on two legs, would the trees have allowed the riders to pass this far?
The riders are on four legs. But the fact that the trees can hate and yet not attack says they have self-control, a malignant sentience, which makes them all the more terrifying. It’s one thing for something to come after you out of instinct, it’s quite another when they come after you by choice.
B. Do you think the Rohirrim ever noticed the beauty of the caves or is Gimli right in saying they only think of them as needed?
The Rohirrim call the cave “Glæmscrafu”, which means “Beautiful caves”. The Rohirrim seem to be the type of people who appreciate a combination of beauty and function. Indeed, one would assume that Rohirrim would consider the caves a worthy stable for their horses.
Or is the beauty such that only Dwarves would notice it, because only they notice the subtleties of stone?
I’m sure the Dwarves are in the “Avant-Garde” regarding stone, but that doesn’t mean someone ignorant of the subtleties cannot appreciate the beauty. For example, I can still vaguely appreciate the beauty of Verdi’s operas or the taste of fine wines even though I’m just a poor country boy.
Would the Rohirrim need Gimli to point it out before they noticed the beauty?
Nope.
Legolas jokes here that he would pay to not have to see them.
C. Why does Legolas say that?
Yes, it’s curious. After all, the kingdom of Thranduil is underground. Legolas acts like he’s closetphobic. Like others say, Legolas is probably pulling the Dwarf's leg.
Gimli chides him for it, then goes on to compare the caves to the halls of Mirkwood: “They are but hovels compare with the caverns I have seen here…”
Er, when did Gimli see the halls of Mirkwood?
D. Gimli now holds Galadriel as his standard for beauty. Any thoughts?
Theoretically that is the point of Courtly Love. The appreciation of the beauty of one‘s Lady leads to the appreciation of the beauty of other things, and finally to the appreciation of the ideal of beauty itsself.
E. What does Gimli, and other dwarves in general, know of the sea?
It’s just northeast of the Blue Mountains. Gloin was an itinerant ironmonger, so his travels would doubtless have taken him there. Of course Gimli would have apprenticed with his father and traveled with him.
Has he ever seen the things he compares the caves to, or has he had descriptions? If so, from whom?
He’s seen them in his travels with his father, and doubtless heard about them from the other Dwarves, including the refugees from Nogrod and Belegost.
Legolas asks how far it is to Isengard: Fifteen leagues as Saruman’s crows fly, is Gandalf’s response.
F. Why the reference to Saruman?
A subtle reminder to be on their guard since Saruman will doubtless be informed of their are coming.
G. The name suggests a deeper history that Gandalf knows of. What is this history...
Aglarond means “Glittering Caves”. (So Gandalf is saying "The Glittering Caves of the Glittering Caves".) But "Aglarond" actually refers to the keep, which was built by Gondor about the same time as Isengard (which was originally called Angrenost.) At first Aglarond was manned by both Rohan and Gondor, but eventually it was turned over entirely to the Rohirrim, who renamed it the Súthburg. (“South Fortress” in AngloSaxon.) When the Dunlendings took Edoras Helm retreated to the Súthburg. Because Helm was as bad as Boromir at blowing his horn all the time, the keep was eventually named the Hornburg.
...or is it explained somewhere I don’t know about?)
Unfinished Tales, "The Battles of the Fords of Isen".
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 29 2008, 7:29pm
Post #8 of 15
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Presumably, after the Battle of Five Armies, trade relations flourished between The Lonely Mountain and Thranduil's people, because however they might boast, elves have always turned to dwarves for much of their metalwork. So Gimli would, in all probability, have visited Mirkwood sometime in his life.
Even if he had not, he would know perfectly well that Legolas grew up in a cave once delved by dwarves. His family would not pass up an opportunity to talk about this at length, together with disparaging remarks about the ingratitude of elves.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 29 2008, 7:58pm
Post #9 of 15
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No doubt Gloin described his imprisonment at Mirkwood at length (as he starts to do at the Council of Elrond) many times to Gimli. Which makes Gimli's friendship with Legolas of Mirkwood all the more remarkable. (Whatever did Gloin think of it?) But was Gimli ever there personally? It's hard to imagine him setting foot in the place previously, much less the Elves even allowing it.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Beren IV
Gondor
May 29 2008, 8:18pm
Post #10 of 15
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Thorin was not exactly diplomatic himself in dealing with Thranduil. I'm not sure the interaction between the wood elves in The Hobbit and Thorin's company was that unfair (although the dwarves certainly might think it was). After all, they are tresspassing in another people's land, they charge into the middle of a banquet three times, disrupting it, and then, when finally brought before the ruler of the land, they will not answer the ruler's simple question "what are you doing here?"
I think that situation would have turned out a whole lot better if Thorin had just been a bit more respectful. Yes, his ancestors did carve out those caves, but the caves don't belong to him, they belong to the elves, and the elves have a right to know why he has barged into their feast.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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sador
Half-elven
May 30 2008, 5:52am
Post #11 of 15
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Meaning my post - I wrote a longer one last night, and for some "magical" reason Internet Explorer chose to crash as I was sending it.
So in brief, to sum up my last night answers:
A. Why does Gimli think this way? If they hated all that went on two legs, would the trees have allowed the riders to pass this far?
Aragorn warned him against the trees of Fangorn in 'The Riders of Rohan', and Galadriel's message to him (brought by Gandalf) might have meant the same. Is he to blame for taking them seriously?
B. Do you think the Rohirrim ever noticed the beauty of the caves, or is Gimli right in saying they only think of them as needed? Or is the beauty such that only Dwarves would notice it, because only they notice the subtleties of stone? Would the Rohirrim need Gimli to point it out before they noticed the beauty?
Of course they did! But it takes a dwarf to come up with a program of regional developement, complete with touring sites, March 4th festivals with veterans re-enacting the battle, traditional blowing of the horn of Helm Hammerhand, a relic of Lorien for passing Elves, etc. Like their relatives in the North (remember the toy market of Dale, which Thorin describes in 'An Unexpected Party?'), the Westfold bumpkins are about to experience an economic boom.
And just now, with all the farms, cots and ricks burned down - this is exactly the right time to buy real estate. If worse comes and Sauron wins, we can always default on the mortgage!
C. Why does Legolas say that?
He's an Elf, and Elves have a silly sense of humor regarding dwarves (see the welcome Thorin and co. received in 'A Short Rest'). And unlike the films, CT apparantly edited out the famous "would you like me to find you a box?", as callous of Legolas, like he did here.
D. Gimli now holds Galadriel as his standard for beauty. Any thoughts?
He did so as early as the end of 'Farewell to Lorien'.
E. What does Gimli, and other dwarves in general, know of the sea? Has he ever seen the things he compares the caves to, or has he had descriptions? If so, from whom?
I agree with Darkstone.
But Gimli's words seem to indicate an undwarvish fascination with the sea - which leads me to think: Did he go with Legolas only because of their friendship, and his desire to see his Lady again? Or did the sea call him personally, as it called Tuor - a call denied in Pelargir, but ultimately becoming an unquenchable yearning?
F. Why the reference to Saruman?
Only because he had crows. The crows are the crux. Compare to 'A Journey in the Dark':
'How far is Moria?' asked Boromir.
'There was a door south-west of Caradhras, some fifteen miles as the crow flies, and maybe twenty as the wolf runs,' answered Gandalf grimly.
Note that both answers are fifteen units.
If the reference is to crows, it could be either because of their mode of flight - realtively high, relatively low (ask Beren IV) - or because they are considered spies. Remember the crows Balin is suspicious of in 'On the Doorstep'?
G. The name suggests a deeper history that Gandalf knows of. What is this history (or is it explained somewhere I don’t know about?)
There upon its spur stood high walls of ancient stone, and within them was a lofty tower. Men said that in the far-off days of the glory of Gondor the sea-kings had built here this fastness with the hands of giants. The Hornburg it was called, for a trunpet sounded upon the tower echoed in the Deep behind, as if armies long-forgotten were issuing to war from caves beneath the hills. A wall, too, the men of old had made... - 'Helm's Deep'
"I have never seen aught like this before" - Eomer
(This post was edited by sador on May 30 2008, 5:57am)
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jun 2 2008, 3:22pm
Post #12 of 15
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Gimli chides him for it, then goes on to compare the caves to the halls of Mirkwood: 'They are but hovels compare with the caverns I have seen here'
Er, when did Gimli see the halls of Mirkwood?
It wouldn't boggle the mind to assume that Gimli and the other Dwarves from Erebor travelled to the Council by way of Thranduil's realm. They expressly journeyed via the Carrock Ford and the High Pass, the same route in reverse that Bilbo took (more or less). I reckon relations were somewhat improved since Thorin's visit.
E. What does Gimli, and other dwarves in general, know of the sea?
It's just northeast of the Blue Mountains. Gloin was an itinerant ironmonger, so his travels would doubtless have taken him there. Of course Gimli would have apprenticed with his father and traveled with him.
In point of fact, Gimli was 62 and living in the Blue Mountains when Thorin & Co embarked on their quest (Gimli was considered 'too young!')
(This post was edited by Solicitr on Jun 2 2008, 3:26pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 2 2008, 5:16pm
Post #13 of 15
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There was that bitterness at the Council of Elrond while Legolas was explaining Gollum's escape:
". ....we had not the heart to keep him ever in dungeons under the earth, where he would fall back into his old black thoughts."
"You were less tender to me," said Gloin with a flash of his eyes, as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven-king's halls.
One could well imagine a nasty fight breaking out if Gandalf had not been there to sooth feelings. I kind of think Gloin would avoid the Elven-king's halls.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Jun 3 2008, 4:11pm
Post #14 of 15
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One can get along just fine with former enemies, for years on end, yet a few words can trigger an old wound. I had to crack up at a bumper-sticker I saw the other day, that says, "Trust the Government!" and shows a picture of an Indian chief in full war-bonnet regalia right next to the words. Mind you, I deal with the government just fine in most instances, vote, pay my taxes, enjoy the roads and infrastructure that those taxes build, etc. But just three words and a picture reminded me to view the government with a healthy dose of skepticism--you never know when they might try to sell you another "treaty".
Gloin is perfectly capable of agreeable trade relations with the Elves, even staying at Thranduil's palace as a guest (and you will notice that at this point he is the guest in another Elvish household, at Rivendell.) That doesn't mean he can't hear the son of his captor describing the tender care given to a prisoner without a flash of old resentments.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:52am
Post #15 of 15
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Why don’t the Rohirrim call them the “Glittering Caves” in the previous chapter?
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Also: the crows of Saruman evoke the journey in Hollin. But why Gandalf should mention them now, I don’t know.
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