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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 22 2008, 6:13am
Post #1 of 6
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Chapter Discussion: Helm's Deep - Reactions and results
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In this chapter we see some surprising moments of humour: Gimli and Legolas's counting game, and Legolas's bragging of having killed 39 Orcs as a response to Aragorn barely escaping to the Hornburg with his life.
1. What place does humour have in the midst of battle?
2. What place does humour have in the midst of battle in a novel?
Gimli: "I looked upon the Hillmen and they seemed over large to me, so I sat beside a stone to see your swordplay."
3. Is this the only time that Gimli admits to a Dwarvish weakness?
At one point of the battle Theoden doubts his decision to ride forth against Saruman, which brought him and his men to Helm's Deep.
4. Do we know enough about Theoden to tell if he is naturally pesimistic during tough times, or whether this is some hold-over from Grima's whisperings?
5. Overall, how did the battle of Helm's Deep changes relationships - for good or ill - between the main protagonists?
6. How has the battle of Helm's Deep changed Rohan's place in the wider politics of Middle-earth (if at all)?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 22 2008, 1:55pm
Post #2 of 6
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1. What place does humour have in the midst of battle?
It’s either laugh or scream and sometimes both. It’s like needing humor at work, only no one is trying to kill you. (Er, wait…)
2. What place does humour have in the midst of battle in a novel?
It’s part of realism, it cuts the tensions, it adds to character. Like, say, humor in the midst of a battle from a novel in a movie.
Gimli: "I looked upon the Hillmen and they seemed over large to me, so I sat beside a stone to see your swordplay."
3. Is this the only time that Gimli admits to a Dwarvish weakness?
It’s not an admission of weakness, it’s an ironic bit of humor. I guess it’s a guy thing.
At one point of the battle Theoden doubts his decision to ride forth against Saruman, which brought him and his men to Helm's Deep.
4. Do we know enough about Theoden to tell if he is naturally pesimistic during tough times, or whether this is some hold-over from Grima's whisperings?
In the darkest of the night, in the midst of a desperate battle, outnumbered, in the lull between endless waves of the enemy, I would think in such a situation anyone except a complete idiot would be pessimistic. He’s the commander. It’s his job to be pessimistic in private, and confident in public. A commander who feels absolutely confident has obviously overlooked something and is in for a nasty surprise. A commander who feels pessimistic is going to keep going over everything in his mind and so is more liable to find the weaknesses in his plans and correct them. It’s the fact that Theoden feels able to confide his pessimism in Aragorn that is significant.
5. Overall, how did the battle of Helm's Deep changes relationships - for good or ill - between the main protagonists?
It bonds Eomer with Aragorn and Gimli. I think it does give even experienced book Aragorn a lesson in leadership and kingship. And it does strengthen the friendship of Gimli and Legolas, though unfortunately the friendship had already been forged offstage.
6. How has the battle of Helm's Deep changed Rohan's place in the wider politics of Middle-earth (if at all)?
It’s like, say, The Battle of Stalingrad. A supposedly 3rd rate army stood toe to toe against a hitherto invincible army and won, thereby giving the first ray of hope to the entire Free World! The geopolitical ramifications for the Soviet Union were extremely significant. Similarly, one can be confident that in the years ahead Rohan will no longer be considered a junior partner to Gondor. The days of the blood sucking bourgeois Edain are numbered! The rise of the long suffering proletariat of the Middle Men is at hand!!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 22 2008, 2:00pm)
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 22 2008, 5:27pm
Post #3 of 6
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I cannot add to anything Darkstone says. He sums up all my intended answers well.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Beren IV
Gondor
May 22 2008, 11:27pm
Post #4 of 6
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A lasting friendship is what this is
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This is another phase in the healing of the rift between Elf and Dwarf and forging a lasting friendship between them. Legolas and Gimli here agree that they have a common enemy that they utterly despise and hate, so they have a contest and a rivalry to see who can destroy the most of these evil creatures. And, because both agree that they would rather have as many dead orcs as possible, the rivalry between them is friendly: each one wants the other to be successful in his quest. It's grim, even horrible, but there is nothing like facing a common enemy to cause two former rivals to realize that they have a great deal in common to be friends over after all.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Canto
Bree
May 23 2008, 12:18pm
Post #5 of 6
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3. Is this the only time that Gimli admits to a Dwarvish weakness?
If Gimli ever admits to any sort of weakness, it usually involves the length of his legs. When the Three Hunters were tracking the Orcs through Rohan, Gimli more readily admitted to being exhausted than the other two due to his short legs. However, Gimli was more than ready to take on Eomer and the Riders when Galadriel was insulted...so I suppose that any Dwarf requires just the right amount of initiative to tackle foes taller than he. (Plus, Eomer and Aragorn really weren't doing a horrible job of smashing Orc heads without him anyway!)
5. Overall, how did the battle of Helm's Deep changes relationships - for good or ill - between the main protagonists?
In one of the drafts for this chapter found in HoME, Aragorn and some other men spring down on the Orcs, Anduril slicing and dicing all the way. Eomer, who has been left behind, cries in a fit of disappointment that Branding was supposed to be wielded side-by-side with Anduril. I only mention this in order to highlight the point made by Darkstone that Aragorn and Eomer's relationship is forever changed by this battle, especially since Branding is wielded alongside Anduril.
One additional point, though: Gandalf's return with Erkenbrand and the other straggling Riders proves to Theoden and the other Rohirrim being assaulted at Helm's Deep that Gandalf truly is a better counselor than Wormtongue and is definitely an advocate for the well-being of Rohan.
"Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases."
(~Tolkien commenting on the similarities between Wagner's Der Ring Des Nibelungen and LoTR)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:50am
Post #6 of 6
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Right – Éomer wasn’t deemed “overlarge”. //
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