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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 21 2022, 10:12am
Post #1 of 25
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A new project - about characters in LOTR?
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This is a text that Ethel Duath and I have prepared together:
***
Some of us have been throwing around ideas for a different tack in terms of Reading Room discussions, and thought maybe exploring specific characters from the books might not only be exciting, but could provide food for thought that may not arise easily from a more general discussion.
And, who doesn’t have a favorite character or two, at least!
We would very much like suggestions, especially for ideas that might give this new avenue for discussions a fairly broad appeal, plus staying power.
Below are the ideas we've been mulling over.
We’re imagining that we would set up a schedule of discussions, each one about a character from LOTR appearing in a situation where we learn something about them (some suggestions at the end).
We thought we’d return to a format the Reading Room used a lot in the past – a discussion scheduled for each week (big subjects could be given longer by arrangement). We suggest that 'the new week' for this starts with a new OP on Tuesdays (following on from Readthrough precedent, if memory serves).
Each discussion has a volunteer ‘leader’ whose job it is to post the starter post on their arranged date, and then maybe interject sometimes during the week to help the discussion keep going if needed (though often discussions quickly become self-sustaining and there is little the Leader needs do).
We could start at the beginning of LOTR, and pick one major and one interlinked major or minor character, like a scene or section involving Bilbo and Lobelia, or Frodo and Sam. Or, do one character at a time, instead.
Another possibility is to ask for people to submit their favorite character, whether or not in book order. Boromir might be a good choice, since we've already gotten a start – see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=999160#999160 .
If it is a passage where two or more characters are interacting, it might be inevitable to cover them both/all in this situation. But sometimes it might work to focus most on one character's POV-chapter: it's the Leader's choice what they do in their OP.
There’s probably no reason why we must adopt one of these ideas exclusively, if some Leaders want to do one, and some the other. Each Leader could use the format they like. We would need to settle whether the project needs to work through the book in chapter order. And in that case, we have to decide whether it would work for chapters to be ‘skipped’, or whether the project has stalled if nobody can be found to do a certain chapter or scene.
On the whole a project where things can be done in any order can manage with fewer participants and a looser schedule than a project where nothing can be skipped, and where people are waiting for their week to come up, and may no longer be able to help if the schedule shifts.
For any of the ideas above, we’d expect things to work out like this:
Helpful prep before the discussion, if possible, would be for everyone to read a chapter or passage the discussion poster/leader has nominated in which this character or situation happens, simply because it is surprisingly easy to get muddled up between the book and movie, fan art, TV series, games, fan fiction and whatnot.
We'd ask the leader to keep the required passage short, so that people aren't excluded because it was too much to read.
We thought it would be best to stick to LOTR only (or the Hobbit, if we do characters from that at some point) for the passage to read for the discussion, so people aren't excluded because they don't own other Tolkien-authored texts.
Not that people can’t draw on other texts for discussion, or on works of Tolkien criticism. Such references are very welcome, and enriching as part of the discussion itself. But the principle is that full participation shouldn’t be dependent upon access to such resources.
So posters should provide suitable quotations from these other works, or summarise the relevant passage or argument, so that someone who has not read that work can follow the discussion.
That character/situation combo is the discussion leader's to present in any way they wish (though they should be careful not to pre-empt any other scheduled discussion). But at least part of the job is to open up as broad a participation as possible. The one thing to keep in mind is to not write a comprehensive essay, but pose questions and then any comments briefly, so as to leave connection points for other contributors. Here is an example which actually is about a character although it didn't go very far: http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=31945#31945
We want the project to be something as many as possible of us do together. And for that reason, we want to avoid anyone thinking that a Leader has to do a lot of work. If people think that, we will never get enough volunteers!
The starter post just has to get things going, and we do the rest together, in conversation. We want to emphasise that the Leader does not have to be a subject expert on what is being discussed. Indeed, if you do say you are baffled and confused by points, it’s a great cue for people to try and explain things, and then for someone else to offer an alternative explanation… and then off we go!
We'd want to keep it about the book, given that this would be in the Reading Room. By tradition, movies or other adaptations can be mentioned, e.g. because the adaptation has gone a different way, and this seems to shed some interesting light on Tolkien's own choices. But it would be important be clear about any references to (say) movie-Boromir in a discussion about book-Boromir. Any discussion that is becoming predominantly about a movie, TV series, game, etc. should be taken over to its proper board.
As far as what to talk about and some ideas for discussion:
We’re saying firmly that "All you need is a book and an opinion" and that while we hope to see old friends again, we really do want to hear from people who have not posted much or not at all.
While we are returning to a format that looks like what the Reading Room used to do, we want to do something that appeals to board members who have arrived recently, as well as appeal to old hands.
We’re thinking the focus should be on how readers interpret a situation and a passage of text. This will be essential if discussion leading is to be inclusive. And each person’s interpretation is their interpretation: at worst it might possibly be so personal that is difficult for anyone else to understand it, but that in no way means it should not be said or responded to.
Obviously points of view should be discussed. In good discussions it very possible to come in with one point of view and come out with another, or at least a modification.
The discussions will thrive on polite and respectful disagreement. But we need to expect everyone to be tolerant of, and inquisitive about other points of view, rather than anyone trying to browbeat others into their own personal favorite One Reading To Rule Them All. (Perhaps admins could look out for hard tackles on this possible hitch?)
Of course if this new formula works well, it could cover other books than LOTR in future, But we thought we’d suggest sticking to LOTR for now.
Some ideas for character/situation combos:
Death of Boromir
We've already uncovered some themes, here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=999160#999160. If it were going on now, we might cover thoughts about debts of honour in dark ages warrior cultures (some folk who come here, or used to, know about that stuff). Those in the know might want to say something about how English people of Tolkien's generation regarded heroic or gallant failure, and how that has changed since.
Other ideas:
• Frodo on Amon Hen--he decides to go to Mordor alone. There are some interesting things trying to influence him.
• Saruman's attempt to persuade Gandalf to appease Sauron, or 'share' the Ring (as reported by Gandalf to Council of Elrond)
• Aragorn (as Strider) at Bree--his interview in Frodo's room where he tries to get the party to trust him
• Galadriel as she either explains to Frodo why she can't take the Ring or comes very close to doing so.
We’re sure there are very many more, and it would probably be best if people picked their own.
The nice thing about focusing on characters is that some of these scenes just don't get covered fully enough in a chapter-a-week read-through, because they appear in chapters where too much else is going on. And that's good, because we aren't then asking people who have done one or many read-throughs simply to rehash their opinion.
We’d like to make it as easy as possible to be involved. This is because projects like this quickly peter out if they don’t have all that much support. And so we’d rather not start on something that won’t attract enough contributors to survive. Hence, please do give us feedback on appeal/staying power for something like this.
****
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by dernwyn on Jan 3 2023, 11:45pm)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Dec 22 2022, 12:13am
Post #2 of 25
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If this lifts off, I'd be happy to join in as an inexpert.
I think moving more or less in chronological order would be best if we're discussing the development of characters.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Dec 22 2022, 3:10am
Post #3 of 25
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If we don't go in order it would mean a lot of backwards and forwards movement through the book which might be awkward.
And "inexpert" I think gives the best chance for new ideas. 
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 22 2022, 9:50am
Post #4 of 25
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Thank you. Like the idea of being a 'subect inexpert'...
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Like the idea of being a 'subect inexpert': that's the sort of person we need!
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 22 2022, 10:26am
Post #5 of 25
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How to plan and do character development studies?
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I do agree that a lot more would come out of a linear pass through the relevant parts of the book, exploring how a certain character develops (or is revealed, or a bit of both).
In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the only real benefit of picking off individual scenes is that they give something suitably bite-sized to discuss in a week. That's both in terms of what the Leader needs to prepare for a certain Tuesday, and what the participants are asked to read.
Are you imagining doing a whole character in one week (or a little more if that's within the stamina of the Leader)? Or would we go more slowly and in more detail, and so require maybe several weeks and more than one Leader to get through each character?
A lot of this, it occurs to me, depends on how much detail people want to go into, and whether we want people to re-read sections of the book rather than rely on memory (with its potential to be innacurate, and to get conflated with the movie and things seen or read elsewhere).
So that's one question - how much detail are people looking for?
The other question is how to organise the work if it's more complex than one subject a week?
Let's take Boromir as an example. How would his story be broken down into important scenes, sections or phases, and then divided into one or more Tuesday posts with leaders to do them and a list of the associated reading for everyone to do?
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 23 2022, 11:40am
Post #6 of 25
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could be split as:
- introduction in Rivendell and behaviour at Council
- behaviour and character development between Rivendell and Lórien
- behaviour and character development from Lórien on (I think that Lórien changes him)
- confrontation with Frodo, orc fight and death
- relationship with Faramir and Denethor, insofar as we see it through their lens
I think this is a great fresh new way of looking at the books!
(This post was edited by Eledhwen on Dec 23 2022, 11:40am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 23 2022, 12:39pm
Post #7 of 25
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Good scheme. How quickly/in how much detail?
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- introduction in Rivendell and behaviour at Council
- behaviour and character development between Rivendell and Lórien
- behaviour and character development from Lórien on (I think that Lórien changes him)
- confrontation with Frodo, orc fight and death
- relationship with Faramir and Denethor, insofar as we see it through their lens A fine idea!
If the discussion was organised inthis sequence then how are you imagining this split over one or more weeks?
Do it in one week? I suppose "Boromir in a week" could start with the Leader posing a question on each of those. We're asking Leaders to write a short OP, so they would have to be brief. Whether the discussion got into any depth about any of this would be up to the replies. And if it did go into depth in one or more areas there would be a whole lot to read (both Tolkien's text, which ought to be important to a RR project ., and the things that forum members are posting)
Or would you be in favour of going more slowly, therefore having the chance to do a deeper dive?
(I think this is my preference, because it is so easy to find superficial treatments elsewhere online. It also increases the chances of getting back to Tolkien's actual texts and enjoying them, rather than recycling derrived 'lore'. But other people may have different ideas!)
"Boromir in several weeks" would need an overall scheme, agreed in advance, which is either your suggesiton or some other scheme like it. That scheme bevomes a schedule with a week give to each of those discussion topics (or some of them combined into one week, if there didn't seem enough to say for a whole week).
In "Boromir in several weeks", People need to know what the focus is this week and what is coming up, so that discussions don't happen prematurely (or don't happen at all because people assumed there would be a better opportunity to raise this later).
A long series of weeks probably needs more than one Leader, unless someone has the stamina to keep going for what could be a month!
I have an idea about how multi-week series could be organised:
Administratively, "Boromir in several weeks" looks to me like a mini-readthrough, skipping parts of Tolkien's text that aren't relevant to our Current Focus Character. (The Boromir mini-readthrough might be followed by other mini-readthroughs, based around understanding, say Eowyn, or Saruman, or another character. Maybe we'd do these comparatively minor characters frst before trying to tackle Frodo or Sam (who, possibly ,ought to be done together anyway since they are rarely separated, and usually with terrible consequences for Frodo!)
Perhaps what you'd need would be someone to volunteer to be "Chief Subject Inexpert for Boromir" (to use Oliphaunt's lovely phrase, aimed at reminding peoepl that they don't have to know the most to help out). This personwould break the discussion down into weeks. They could be assisted by other Leaders as required to do that, and then this person (or group) would organise a Leader for each week of the Boromir discussion.
Meanwhile the volunteer "Chief Subject Inexpert for Eowyn" (say), again assisted by others, is getting ready for the Eowyn series of weeks? And then on to the next character?
None of this seems insurmountable, if there are enough people willing to lead (and, just as importantly, reply to posts: Leaders quickly get demoraised if they post into a vacuum of 'views', but don't get any human response).
A series of mini-readthroughs also shares out the admin and wrangling work between a series of "Chief Subject Inexperts". There isn't necessarily a whole lot of actual work to do, but the sense of responsibility can be very wearing (or that's how it was for me).
And, just maybe, once people have got used to organising something they might be willing to do something else...
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 23 2022, 5:52pm
Post #8 of 25
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Similarly, Saruman in Several weeks...
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Similarly, Saruman in Several weeks would go to a scheme a bit like this, I think:
- His betrayal of Gandalf (in the chaotic conversation the two wizards have in Orthanc we see a lot of what makes Saruman interesting to me, and different to many fantasy antagonists)
- Saruman's career as a Power. We don't 'see' him appear directly in a chapter or scene, but the threat he poses and his schemes and actions are discussed by the Fellowship, by characters at Edoras, and by Treebeard. So we learn a lot about him, I think
- Saruman stuck in Orthanc (mostly The Voice of Saruman, with its inversions of the two wizards' last conversation. But also Gandalf's speculations to Pippin about what Saruman might do, and other comments about his predicament)
- Sharkey - Saruman's schemes in The Shire, his confrontation with Frodo and his death.
Or something like that.
So maybe that is 4 weeks of discussion, with time for getting back to (re-)reading the text for fresh ideas and previously-overlooked points, and time to explore any interesting byways?
It could be planned by wizardly (or even non-wizardly) Council of Many Colours*, which might of course want to refine or re-organise the suggested scheme. I think there's too much for any one person to lead unless they are very keen and have a lot of time. Certainly I wouldn't want to Lead all four weeks. So maybe each member of the Council then becomes a Leader for one of the weeks.
So that's one way to so it, I think, and the question is whether such a project would be interesting, & something in which people would get actively involved by Leading weeks and by replying in the discussions?
We'd need not just four wizardly leaders, but enough forum members wanting to discuss things for this to be a success!
------
*I think it would be amusing if planning and doing a sequence about Saruman was done by a Council of Many Colours. But maybe I have an odd sense of humour I imagine the planning groups would chose their own names, if we did things this way & if the planning groups wanted to give themselves amusing names. Work on other focus characters might be co-ordinated by groups with different names - do you fancy being part of Eowyn's éored, for example?
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 23 2022, 8:24pm
Post #9 of 25
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Depends how long we want to string it out for!
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The whole project could take a year if there were 4/5 topics per character. Or less time if we just went "discuss Boromir" and spent a couple of weeks per character. Maybe decide based on interest levels?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 24 2022, 10:14am
Post #10 of 25
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Yes: we return to "WHAT DO BOARD MEMBERS WANT?"
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...which I expect we'll learn either from replies over the next couple of weeks -- or from an absence of replies, which will indicate that too few board members are interested in these ideas (or something else that somebody is yet to propose) for a project to be viable.
And therefore we need people to say whether they are interested in doing something, and that hasn't happened all that much yet.
It's a very good point that we have little idea how board members would like characters to be examined (if at all): quickly or slowly and how deeply or superficially.
That's the sort of information it seems only fair to gather from the board members en masse before getting people to do work on the forum's behalf, I think.
So we'll see!
Meanwhile Happy Christmas, or Happy Other Holidays to everyone, and please do say if you are interested in a 'characters' project.
We will I think want to draw conclusions in January - from the discussion there has been: or from a large number of 'views' but little discussion. That result would suggest that board members are aware of these ideas, but don't find them appealing, haven't suggested anything else and are presumably happy that "As things are they must remain."
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 24 2022, 10:19am)
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Dec 24 2022, 4:17pm
Post #11 of 25
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Or, like R. L., folks are waiting until
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something gets going before they "jump on the bus." If we have even just a few people, it might be worth doing one post, and seeing who shows up.
But yes, not till January sometime.
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Asger
Rivendell
Dec 25 2022, 9:01am
Post #12 of 25
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But I’m not sure I can contribute anything as I’m not a ‘character reader’. But I might sneak a comment or two in…
"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk
(This post was edited by Asger on Dec 25 2022, 9:02am)
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Dec 26 2022, 2:55pm
Post #13 of 25
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And you might be surprised at what comes up that you might have comments on.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Dec 26 2022, 4:15pm
Post #14 of 25
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Agree, why not just start out and see who joins in.
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Frodo and Sam thought they were leaving the Shire alone, but two turned into four, then five, then nine. And a fair number of other folks helped out.
So far we've six people on this post, which should be enough to start. Say second week-ish in January. As an inexpert, I'll gladly bumble through a topic or two. nWm started this, and suggested Boromir. Which is a fine start. Following Boromir won't take as long since Boromir met an early demise. Even counting the after-Boromir scenes with Faramir and Denethor.
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 26 2022, 6:13pm
Post #15 of 25
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Yes, I'm happy to jump in and see how much moss we accumulate along the way! //
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Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 30 2022, 10:12am
Post #17 of 25
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So, let's do it! -- erm -- just checking what 'it' is?
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Thanks for these responses everyone, and I hope you {had/are having} a good holiday season.
I agree we could get on with 'it'. And, from the conversation so far, I think 'it' is An examination of Boromir's character in the LOTR book, organised as suggested by Eledhwen, earlier.
I've added dates to Eledhwen's scheme, proposing a 10 January start with one discussion started each Tuesday. That would give us
Tuesday 10 January - introduction in Rivendell and behaviour at Council
Tuesday 17 January - behaviour and character development between Rivendell and Lórien
Tuesday 31 January - behaviour and character development from Lórien on
Tuesday 7 February - confrontation with Frodo, orc fight and death
Tuesday 14 February - relationship with Faramir and Denethor, insofar as we see it through their lens
If that is what everyone was expecting, more or less, then the next step is to find volunteers to lead each week.
Everyone is welcome to lead a week - nobody should think they don't know enough, or that it is too a big responsibility.
The leader of the week is to write a Short (note to self ) post that is mostly marking passages that everyone should read from the book, and posing some open questions/making some comments so as to start the discussion.
Leaders should not think they have to cover the subject thoroughly. That leads to offputtingly long essay-like posts, which can be hard to respond to, because the author seems to have covered everything.
Other than that, it is the leaders's buisiness to work out how best exactly to introduce their segment. But it is everyone's business to engage with the discussion, including asking fresh questions or opening up interesting tangents for others to explore.
The Leader can help during the week by posing new points, or thanking contributors for interesting material. But most of what should be happening is replies and interactions, rather than relying on the Leader. Otherwise it is too difficult and unrewarding for Leaders, and we cannot expect the project to do well.
(Assuming I have described 'it' more or less right) Pick a week you'd like to lead!
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Dec 30 2022, 10:02pm
Post #18 of 25
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That way I can warm up during the first week, and get my inner inexpert on.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 31 2022, 11:44am
Post #19 of 25
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Taking an Oliphaunt across the Misty Mountains might be appropriate in a Hannibal sort of way (Hannibal the Carthaginian General who took elephants across the Alps, not the fava beans and Chianti Hannibal ).
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 31 2022, 11:51am
Post #20 of 25
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I shall do Week 1 (Boromir at the Council of Elrond, 10 January)
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I think that makes sense, since I'm one of the people who have been thinking about this new format. It may help for others to see an example rather than an explanation.
And it also means that people signing up for the other sections have longer to decide it's OK to contribute, & to think about their section.
An early contribution also suits me personally - once 2023 gets under way I have a lot (of good stuff) to do in 2023, and so it is easier for me to help get things started than to help keep them going.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Dec 31 2022, 3:12pm
Post #21 of 25
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Oliphaunt could have crossed Caradhras as well
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But Moria would have been a problem.
See you on the 10th!
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Dec 31 2022, 3:57pm
Post #22 of 25
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I shall take Tuesday, Jan. 31:
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Behavior and character development from Lórien on. It is something that intrigues me.
(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Dec 31 2022, 3:58pm)
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Dec 31 2022, 4:01pm
Post #23 of 25
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Or an asset, in certain situations.
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But awfully hard luck on it at the end, if not the middle!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 1 2023, 11:43am
Post #24 of 25
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Get the oliphaunt across the bridge...
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Get the oliphaunt across the bridge sounds like on of those odd "teambuilding exercises" that businesses liked to inflict on staff at one time.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 1 2023, 6:23pm
Post #25 of 25
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I've made a signup thread - please sign up over there
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Happy New year, everyone.
I've made a signup thread here. My aim is to make it clear that we are about to start a project, and have got past just discussing something that might or might not happen.
If you want to volunteer to lead one of the remaining discussions (of course you do want to do that, don't you? ) then it would be very helpful if you could vounteer on the sign-up thread, not here. That makes it easier for everyone to see the state of play.
I suggest we carry on using this thread to discuss what the project will be like (if anything more needs be said).
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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