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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 10 2022, 10:34am
Post #1 of 15
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Admins - not sure whether this goes here or on Main. It is about the community here, in any case. Please move as you feel fit.
I've been here almost exactly ten years (my first post is dated Dec 5 2012, 4:04pm). Half as long as some folk, but I think I can say how it works.
The Admins (and ultimately the Founders) have the power to decide what can NOT be said.
But who decides what IS said?
There is no authorial staff, and no set membership to elect a committee of volunteer writers or editors.
We are a fanarchy.
This means anyone can join and become a high volume poster.High volume means, (very suitably for my point here) either someone who posts a lot or someone who gives the impression of loundness.
Either way, ther ehave usualy been a few posters who have set the tone of the forums by the example they give.
At one time I was one of a group of high volume posters. It has been others before me and must be others now and in the future when I no longer have the time and ideas, and the community's wishes and concerns arre increasingly not mine (or so it seems).
What do today's high volume posters want? Well, I wondered whether AshNazg might have hit the nail on the head here, when they invite people to "enjoy getting annoyed".
There has certainly be a lot of angry complaining in these forums of late. Mostly of course about the Amazon TV show, but also about anyone who has worked on it, or likes it, or about other things.
So maybe that is what we do now here -enjoy getting annoyed? How is that going, everyone?
It's not for me. And while people can enjoy their freedom of speech, others can enjoy their freedom from speech, but not turning up any more because things are too argumentitive and repetitive. You can make TORN your stage or pulpit, but you can't lock the audience in. What seems to me to be happening is that those who don't enjoy getting annoyed don't enjoy the site when it contains so much annoyance.
I think this site has lasted as long as it has because each generation of high volume posters has had something positive in mind to do. I suspect that getting angry about things is not going to work out so well.Or of course maybe that is what we do here now?
Or what you do here now, because count me out.
Does people mostly want to do something else, or is this it?
And how to do something else, if it is the case that some of us really do enjoy getting annoyed don't really reflect the will or future of the forum? People who enjoy getting annoyed will presumably really enjoy the cortisol of anyone asking to get them to stop, or a childish fight over which gang gets to occupy the tree house.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Dec 10 2022, 5:39pm
Post #2 of 15
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I got a chuckle out of "fanarchy." Apparently, it's a real word. First I heard it though.
10 years ago, it was reaction to The Hobbit.
20 years ago, it was reaction to Lord of the Rings.
I suppose it's like 3D. Every 10 years they trot out some new gimmick to get people excited and make money..
People love to chat, whatever course it takes.
And every post here propagates that indirect advertising and revenue stream. ;)
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Dec 10 2022, 5:40pm)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 10 2022, 7:01pm
Post #3 of 15
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It's nice to see you on the boards again. 
In comparison to 10, even five, years ago, the only change in the rules around behaviour on the boards has been to make the admins' expectations more explicit: no on-going niggling, not being argumentative, etc. What happens within those bounds is up to the board members.
Having more discussions that are inquisitive rather than confrontational depends on those members who like the former to be involved - to set the standard through their actions, if you like. And those board members are here. Maybe they just need a good starting post to encourage them to take part more often.
I do think that the perceived norm of interactions on other social media platforms - which is more 'prove what you've just said' rather than 'that's a take I haven't seen before; can you give more details' - has bled-over onto our discussion boards. Ultimately it's up to us (board members) to retain the more supportive discussion environment that's kept the boards going for more than two decades.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 11 2022, 2:34pm
Post #4 of 15
(1208 views)
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I agree, but also had to go scream into a bucket
[In reply to]
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Yes it's certainly true that it is user behaviour rather than admin moderation that has been the significant change.
And, you are agreeing with my starter post to point out that these boards are what the board members make them, by what we contribute to, and by what we don't contribute to.
And yes, the best solution would be to have plenty of old-fashioned friendly discussion to re-normalise civility and the appearance of sanity here.
But that requires people to turn out and do it in reasonable numbers and with reasonable persistence. Not just someone starting the odd jolly thread.
The reason I had to go scream in a bucket -- I feel much better now -- is that I have repeatedly started threads and projects since the 2014-2016 LOTR readthrough ended.
A number of things I have tried to get going have quickly stalled, leaving me with the feeling of having put in more than I got back, or generally of not knowing what it is people want.
So I know it is not as easy as you are suggesting to whistle up a lot of board members willing to have that sort of discussion.
And if it becomes a discussion of just a few participants, it breaks down when people get busy or elsewhere or run out of steam - no matter how many lurkers the discussion is attracting or how good the free entertainment is while it lasts.
Of course perhaps that can change or has changed. But I'm feeling rather battered by previous attempts at energising people.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 11 2022, 7:11pm
Post #5 of 15
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A number of things I have tried to get going have quickly stalled, leaving me with the feeling of having put in more than I got back, or generally of not knowing what it is people want.
I've felt that frustration a time or two in the past.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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Inferno
Superuser
/ Moderator
Dec 11 2022, 7:11pm
Post #6 of 15
(1197 views)
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I'm mostly going to speak with the admin hat off and on the shelf (although I will have to tip a hat to it (how's that for a mixed metaphor (and how's this for unnecessarily complicated parenthenticals?))) and instead speak as an old fogie of a board member who's been around (sometimes more active than other times) since 1999 (23+ years? My how time flies. I didn't realize my tOR.N account is old enough to drink).
The negative tone and angry complaining has been part of the board the entire time. I don't know how many of the old jokes about Kellenar and his projectile vomiting still float about the board consciousness these days, but he was very angry and outspoken even before the Fellowship was released. He was by far the worst of the original offenders but there were many in that camp. And after the movies came out, not only were there people who hated them and vociferously voiced their views, there was the backlash of anger against the "Leggyloos" and the people who just came to the boards to post WOW! and WOAH! and I KNOW! without any content for discussion.
And then the Hobbit movies were announced and the reaction those were even more intense. (and here's where I refer to the admin hat every so briefly). A lot of the TOS rules that we have now about polite discussion and no politics and don't attack people came into existence because of the very heated discussions on the Hobbit boards. Many people hated those movies and, by extension, had a hard time separating their dislike of the movies from the people who voiced opinions contrary to theirs.
It's no surprise to me at all that the Rings of Power has generated the same contention and heat. I can't speak to why you happen to be noticing it more with this iteration than you did with the Hobbit movies, but it's a thing that has been part of the boards from nearly their founding. I know I personally got into a number of heated discussions when I was a more active member. The Inferno moniker (while actually a reference to Dante's) carries with it the connotation of flame wars, which I'd been in a number of back before tOR.N was even a thing, and I cheerfully waded full in to some of those discussions when I was a high volume poster myself.
So to me the question isn't one of have the boards changed tone, but what does one do when one is uncomfortable because one has noticed the tone is too negative about a particular topic?
Some options that occur to me off the cuff... If there's a poster whom you consistently find unpleasant to read, just don't open those posts. A little personal filtering goes a long way to make one more comfortable on the boards. That's a tactic a lot of us have taken over the years.
There's the option you suggested here and that's to make some more positive posts oneself. It is rather a lot of work to do a lot of that, and it may not be something you personally are comfortable with or have time for, but it's an option.
Avoid the more contentious board -- right now, that's the Rings of Power board -- in favor of the other boards. Main, Reading Room, the two movie boards and so on-- until everyone's gotten it out of their system and the perpetually annoyed have wandered off to find a new Thing to be annoyed about.
Take the debater approach. In high school debate, at least back when I was in school-- no idea what it's like now-- the two debaters were given the topic and one had to be for and one had to be against regardless of how they each personally felt. And the point was to present cogent arguments calmly without attacking the other side. If you are wanting to wade into the discussions, perhaps find ways to present arguments for and against that are more rational and encourage others to take a similar approach. It can often be illuminating if one loves a show to argue for its flaws (I had to do this once on a panel about The Big Bang Theory I was on at a convention-- all the panelists liked the show and we needed someone to be critical of it (so the panel didn't turn into a boring hooray fan club session), so I threw out a bunch of the arguments my friends who didn't like the show had made to me, even though I didn't personally agree with them. Being in a position of having to defend those positions made me more tolerant of those who held them) or conversely, if one hates a show to argue for its good points. It occurs to me as I'm typing that that might be an interesting topic to start on the RoP board. Ask people who like the show to come up with 3 or 5 things they didn't like and ask people who didn't like it to come up with 3 or 5 things they did.
Last suggestion is look for the positive posts and comment on those if those are your speed.
I'm sure others might come up with other options, and possibly even some better ones.
That all said (and putting the admin hat back on), if there are specific instances that you spot that are clearly over the line on the negativity, please bring them to our attention. We want this to be a place where everyone who wants to talk Tolkien is welcome, and that includes you specifically, as well as everyone here generally, and we have a lot of discussions on the admin board on where to draw the lines-- there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes to make the boards as welcoming as we can, but we aren't perfect, and stuff will sometimes slip by us. Or we disagree on what is over the line or not. People are welcome to criticize the Rings of Power but they are not welcome to criticize the individuals who like the show. So if you spot that, let us know and we'll clean it up.
But in my experience, this too shall pass, and the boards will settle down again. Until the next Big Thing for someone to be outraged about.
I hope there was something in this screed that provides some comfort or encouragement for you. I sometimes mentally wander when I get long-winded and I'm not sure I actually got my point across. =)
Inferno.
======================
Good night, tOR.Nados. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely delete you in the morning.
======================
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Dec 11 2022, 9:11pm
Post #7 of 15
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. . .I got it.
Interesting to see back all that way, that we keep crossing the same mountains, and I agree wholeheartedly with all your prescriptions--pretty much a lot of what I was thinking, too.
I do think there is something different and more upsetting about what's been going on on the ROP site--more about people's external worldviews in ways that cut very deep. But I think here on the boards, the prescription would be the same as what you've mentioned. The most upsetting ROP arguments are about things that cannot be solved by discussion on the boards. However, I still believe it's possible that simply the ongoing presence of the civil, kind, both-funny-and-often-quite-deep (calling Darkstone) types of discussions that I remember so well, like the way NoWiz put it in that other thread: " . . . how people mostly support each other in making points or driving the discussion forward, rather than regarding each other as competitors or targets, or sources of enjoyable outrage. Note the preponderance of positive interactions," may provide a place and an example that the more combative might find sometimes attractive (or even, maybe possibly! instructive) as a way to hold things together and enjoy one anothers' company even when deep disagreements remain.
I, too, love parentheses. 
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 12 2022, 12:57pm
Post #8 of 15
(1142 views)
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Yes, I think it is different this time
[In reply to]
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Indeed. You can' thelp but notice that some of the angry stuff is explicitly about RoP as an example of wider positions and worldviews.
And it's pretty easy to read between the lines in other posts.
Also, People are explicitly linking to or getting riled up about upon things elsewhere on the Internet - some of which does seem to be deliberately designed to be sensationalist, inflamatory, or provocative (for clicks or to achieve other goals). That stuff wasn't so available years ago.
So a fire has been lit that may pass quickly, or take a very long time to run out of fuel.
And it is not like someone getting very angry about this or that rather specialised thing and then running out of steam when they can't find anyone else who cares.
Meanwhile the boards are already quieter than I remember them when people were getting very angry about The Hobbit movies.
There are also many other places to go for Tolkien online now, which was not the case so much during previous crises. (Though it is also true that many places have had teh same problems).
There's no particular reason to suppose that, just because they have survived outbursts of Nerd Rage accompanying each Tolkien release, these boards will survive this time.
If people drift away for long enough, there is no guarentee they will come back.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Dec 12 2022, 8:27pm
Post #9 of 15
(1126 views)
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That is a heartbreaking thought.
[In reply to]
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The disruptions and burdens in society right now are so extreme, that it's understandable it would bleed over. But I think a lot of people would prefer this to be a haven rather than a battleground. Battlegrounds aren't a place to live.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 13 2022, 1:43pm
Post #10 of 15
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But a real possibility, I think
[In reply to]
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Anyway, we have a new proposal to put to the Reading Room, and offer it a 'whither' rather than continue to watch it wither.
But whether anything happens depends on whether sufficient people want to do something like that.
And then whether that offers a reset, and if so whether that lasts any time at all.
I have to say, I am not at all optimistic.
But it seems at least worthwhile to encourage people to think about what, if anything, they want to do here nowadays.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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ElanorTX
Tol Eressea
Dec 15 2022, 6:16am
Post #11 of 15
(1055 views)
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both the learning and the camaraderie of TORn.
Most of the FB and reddit groups are nowhere near this one.
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 18 2022, 3:50am
Post #12 of 15
(985 views)
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(the last new thread in the RR) I don’t believe it’s been tried before, but… it’s not exactly a brick, having plenty of views, but not a single reply. I’m planning to put up another Chrystmass MEVC soon, hope that will generate some discussion and a little fun.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 18 2022, 11:17am
Post #13 of 15
(967 views)
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That's disapointing SirDennisC. You may borrow my bucket to scream into if you like. 
It's a good example of how replies are as important as OPs. And how replies (or the lack of them) determine what further OPs the board gets (and indeed, whether it gets any).
Indifference to what people post here is a different social problem to the one about posts that get aggressive, unkind or otherwise negative responses. And it's just as existential.
any one post can mis-fire -- for exampe, it asks for information or another kind of response that nobody has the wherewithall to give.
But more widely, a forum that does not sustain its authors will not survive except as an archive of things written in happier days, and nor does it deserve to do so.
Or it will survive as a forum that now publishes the new kinds of things that do get reactions.
~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 18 2022, 2:26pm
Post #14 of 15
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You’ve thought about this deeply. There is a trove of brilliant original content and factual information here, that hopefully will be preserved forever, but the interaction has migrated away to other platforms. I prefer my online interactions like my romantic encounters: asynchronous. (Jk) If they must choose, many prefer immediacy over substance, but both is much better. People here do seem to be looking for and appreciate reliable information. The post of mine that generated several hundred views the quickest referenced Carpenter’s “The Letters of JRRT” in the subject line, though I don’t recall any replies being made to that post in an otherwise active thread. The RR exists as a kind of wiki these days, with other topic clusters containing plenty of reliable information and compelling original content as well. It reminds me of visiting a long established library, full of countless wonderful texts whose value is inestimable (at least worth all the metal of the Shire).
The community has changed, or rather our online habits have; how could we not with so many members/accounts who have been active more or less for a decade or two? Still, there is clearly evident a mutual fondness among TORn members, and a familiarity that persists, even as frequency of visits falls off. This is precious, and unique: when I make a post here it does not feel like dropping a pebble down a very deep well, or shouting into the wind, as it does at some other sites. And the sense of community is built into, is part of the dna of all the content so freely offered on this platform for a generation.
ps I appreciate your thoughts on the subject, the story of TORn and the way we (members) do has long fascinated me.
pps this reply got long, I’m under the whether, and theirs probably several typos (see what I did there?) sorry.
ppps do not use it again
…
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Dec 18 2022, 2:27pm)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 18 2022, 2:50pm
Post #15 of 15
(969 views)
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Missed the window, but this works!
Magpie was really into the culture of TORn as well, and upon a time began a wiki project based on TORn… hmm that was about 10 years ago.
The important thing is that people, even some who have sailed into the West, are remembered here, just as friends who we know in real life. This too speaks to the uniqueness of TORn, and the value we place on what has been said, and those who have said it.
Plus it’s always been a community to tolerate a bit of fun, as I have tried to make in RoP from time to time.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Dec 18 2022, 2:51pm)
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