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Eldy
Tol Eressea


Nov 2, 9:02pm

Post #26 of 47 (730 views)
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Balrog awakening [In reply to] Can't Post

When Durin III orders the mine sealed, he tosses the healed leaf through the gap in the stones just before it's blocked up. The camera then follows the leaf as it falls through the mines and bursts into flame when it reaches the bottom. The camera then passes through the stone and shows us the roaring Balrog. As I said, I don't think McPayne intended to present this as the leaf awakening the Balrog, but I can't blame anyone for taking that implication from the scene! At the very least, it begs the question of why the awakened Balrog was just chilling down there, roaring at nothing instead of trying to escape. If he was already awake before the leaf scene, that if anything makes the question more puzzling.

(Obviously, the answer is "it looks cool," an unsurprisingly PJ-esque bit of reasoning for a scene which replicates PJ's Balrog more or less exactly.)


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Nov 2, 9:10pm

Post #27 of 47 (729 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
For all the flaws and stumbles, I am quite impressed and pleased that the showrunners have chosen to engage with the idea of Sauron's seeming repentance and, that as Tolkien puts it "Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power."


I appreciate the show giving more oxygen to the idea of a repentant Second Age Sauron, which as you note is very much a Tolkienian idea, regardless of the differences in specifics with ROP's execution. I only hope the show's justifiably mixed reception doesn't cause people to write off the idea because Amazon went there.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 2, 9:11pm

Post #28 of 47 (725 views)
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Correlation does not equal causation [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe I'm dense (don't tell my clients!), but I don't see any indication that Durin III's action in any way causes the Balrog to awaken.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Nov 2, 9:16pm

Post #29 of 47 (726 views)
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True, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

...movies and TV shows are usually—not always—presented in a sequence of cause and effect where viewers are expected to draw causal connections between scenes based on their proximity to each other. :P


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 2, 9:22pm

Post #30 of 47 (719 views)
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Fair enough [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not much of a movie or TV person, but we are after all talking about a TV show!

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Nov 2, 11:04pm

Post #31 of 47 (712 views)
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Follow The Camera [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...movies and TV shows are usually—not always—presented in a sequence of cause and effect where viewers are expected to draw causal connections between scenes based on their proximity to each other. :P


It sounds simply like a common follow-the-camera move to transition a scene. There are countless examples in cinema of a thrown object meant to take the viewer to a new place, to move the story. Reading your description, that's how I see it.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Nov 2, 11:29pm

Post #32 of 47 (715 views)
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Psychopaths are good at seeming sympathetic [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I wonder what your take is on this:


Quote
For his part, Sauron seems to be driven to evil almost reluctantly—and, as several commenters have pointed out, it is largely Galadriel that does the driving.

(Like Aragorn the reluctant King).

And Sauron becoming sympathetic, humanized.


I see Sauron as completely manipulative, like Ted Bundy. It's all a really good act.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Nov 2, 11:30pm)


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Nov 3, 12:19am

Post #33 of 47 (709 views)
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I suppose my preconceptions... [In reply to] Can't Post

...are likely playing a role, because I assumed the Balrog would be dormant until disturbed by Dwarves, and that once awakened he would begin making trouble. Seeing him awake and still tucked away in an especially deep, dark corner of the mountain roots results in a number of questions, which the leaf awakening theory provides some of the less ridiculous answers to. On the other hand, it could be the roaring Balrog was not meant to be taken literally, though there's no indication that it was a vision had by any character within the show.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Nov 3, 9:23pm

Post #34 of 47 (661 views)
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The Consequences of setting aside the Philosophy. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a very interesting review but to backtrack.

One of the matters that I confirmed in my own mind from an interaction with Dormouse is that the nature of the Elves' Immortality and the philosophical distinction between Elves and Men was not going to be explored but through Arondir and Bronwyn we were going to be treated merely with the result. The distinction would be grounded.

This is echoed in that horribly racist speech made in the courtyard in Numenor before Ar Pharazon intervenes and then later makes it clear his own ambition lies in the same grounded viewpoint. The Elves will be shown a thing or to. His grievance comes across as purely political and acquisitive.

This leads me to the reviewer's comments about Galadriel and the causation for making the rings. The reviewer is unhappy that the decision to make the rings is not seen as a second fall but a heroic act. This of course is the fault of the decision to go with the Mithril myth and the "fast spin cycle" fading.

However, I think the reviewer is overlooking something we have talked about elsewhere. Elrond, Galadriel, et al are still very close to their first age experience. They are not the regretful Elves of thousands of years hence. They are much closer to the tetchy, fallen, unloved son, Feanor, and the disastrously proud and hubristic Thingol. Not to mention the Kinslaying.

Those children in the opening scene show us these Elves are merely men with all their faults, who are immortal. They have yet to learn how to control and take advantage of their immortality. There is no wisdom except in the knowing hero Felagund, who will see it all with his great friend Beren, off-screen. The only other one enobled so far is Arondir through his sacrificial love.

Gil-Galad is a politician and a very poor one. Celebrimbor, with famous grandfather syndrome, is as excited about capturing hidden creative power as Halbrand. Elrond is an innocent friend of everybody, yearning to fit in.

What makes these Elves interesting is they are not yet "There."

As to the other criticism of Adar and Halbrand being too sympathetic. I personally am glad evil has been brought out from behind the kind of images used in the Hobbit for Sauron and Bolg/Azog and appear more real and more evil. The fact that the producers have any of us thinking what if? about Galadriel/Halbrand is a perfect way of unlocking our own temptations.

We have seen evil as an eye, a shadow, a dragon, a dreadful spirit but the one that moves us the most in both book and film in the Lord is Smeagol Gollum and that I think is the aspiration of this show to take us to that place where a small part of Galadriel is tempted to a fall and a small part of Halbrand is tempted to redemption and in living that journey the consequences are disastrous. Did Mr. Tolkien take us there, yes with Frodo and Gollum?

I do not buy that the leaf ignited the Balrog, it was merely a device for foreshadowing. It is the perfect piece of symbolism for expressing the consequences of the stakes of the tension between the Durins' between ambition and restraint.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


fantasywind
Rivendell

Nov 5, 3:25pm

Post #35 of 47 (636 views)
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Hidden Valinor [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem is that they already messed up the whole issue of the Aman, Undying Lands being part of the world still with the cataclysm of Numnor's Downfall also bringing the Change of the World, a shattering cataclysm and so it means that the Straight Road which the 'magic portal' depicted in the show could have been would not exist yet but apparently they could't do this visually in any way but to make it so tangled :). In any case the star constellation to me is yet another pointless mystery box.


Quote
Númenor itself on the edge of the rift topples and vanishes for ever with all its glory in the abyss. Thereafter there is no visible dwelling of the divine or immortal on earth. Valinor (or Paradise) and even Eressëa are removed, remaining only in the memory of the earth. Men may sail now West, if they will, as far as they may, and come no nearer to Valinor or the Blessed Realm, but return only into the east and so back again; for the world is round, and finite, and a circle inescapable — save by death. Only the 'immortals', the lingering Elves, may still if they will, wearying of the circle of the world, take ship and find the 'straight way', and come to the ancient or True West, and be at peace.

The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Edited by Humphrey Carpenter, Letter 131 to Milton Waldman, late 1951?


And that appendices also mention the Change of the World, they didn't need to delve into specifics of it but some of the stuff like physical accessiility of Aman is a HUGE plot point for Pharazon invading fleet is supposed to reach it :).


Quote
The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman... set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage, and steered due West towards the ancient site of these lands. They only set out after sundown; but if any keen-eyed observer from that shore had watched one of these ships he might have seen that it never became hull-down but dwindled only by distance until it vanished in the twilight; it followed the straight road to the true West and not the bent road of the earth's surface. As it vanished it left the physical world. There was no return. The Elves who took this road and those few 'mortals' who by special grace went with them, had abandoned the 'History of the world' and could play no further part in it.

The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Edited by Humphrey Carpenter, Letter 325 to Roger Lancelyn Green, 17 July 1971



Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Nov 5, 10:54pm

Post #36 of 47 (620 views)
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Thank you for your response [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's world.

Up until September 2022, I only had one view of the myth Mr. Tolkien had laid out between 1917 and 1973. That it was in a constant state of flux. Tuor, Earendil, and Ar Pharazon end up somewhere and the only one who makes any sense is Earendil who was able to pierce all the deceits and shadows because he had, right from 1917 been the appointed one. How come Ar Pharazon got through and landed? Because it made storytelling sense.

I agree with the professor's very late view that the idea of the way parts of the myth at a physical level had evolved was absurd. However, it matters not because Tolkien is and always remains first and foremost about allegorical philosophical storytelling (not political allegory) informed by both experience and deep religiosity.

For many, because his observation of human behaviour was so keen (Lobelia, Saruman, and Boromir et al) and his attention to detail so exquisite people believe it all has to be entirely coherent and consistent.


Rings Of Power

It is clear after the first season that the producers are trying to retain the spirit and embroider some things and simplify others in the name of communication. The journey to Valinor was beautifully realized and made clear to the audience that there is a gateway that only those granted can pass through. How far Ar Pharazon and his fleet will get is for now mere speculation but the absurd idea that chunks of the earth disappear into the cosmos will I believe not be one of them.

There are some things you can write down and get away with but not so with the visual medium.

Over the last fifty years, I have read all of the letters, biographies, and the like. There is something deeply romantic about taking a book off a shelf and disappearing into the world before the first energy crisis of 1973. However, after the LOTR films, which were a compression, these expansions (Hobbit and ROP) I take on their own merits. The Hobbit I spent 3 years on and eventually disregarded it, so far the ROP is for me.

I still sense a lot of what people do not like is at an adaptive level rather than on its own merits.

The fading myth is invented, and in a world that will take five seasons to explore, does not sound or feel real but plot point convenient. Maybe that is an example of me being too rooted in Tolkien and not the Hithaeglir.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Nov 6, 12:04am

Post #37 of 47 (613 views)
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False Choice [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I still sense a lot of what people do not like is at an adaptive level rather than on its own merits.


Both have been very well and thoroughly criticized.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Nov 6, 3:27am

Post #38 of 47 (601 views)
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I am critical but. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have noticed a couple of posts from you where you quote from sources all over the internet. I will admit I have neither the time nor the interest in scouring the net for the full range of views. Instead, I have focused my time on watching the show three times. But my impression here is the greater amount of the criticism is as an adaption. You maybe right and I maybe wrong.

The best-written critique here was by someone called "The Dude" but essentially he/she did not buy the show in terms of characters or feelings whereas I do. If you do not buy the story or engage with the characters there really is little more to say. But the criticism was about the show not about whether it was a good adaption.

My remark was too broad what I should have said is that the reviewer who was recently quoted clearly had not bought into the notion that this show emotionally takes place soon after the First Age ended and a long time before the end of the Third Age. If you look at the Elves and Harfoots from that perspective their very different portrayal of values from the LOTR makes a lot more sense.

The Dwarves, by contrast, are much closer to the loyal but questing Dwarves of the Third Age both Hobbit and LOTR and are more familiar, and in my view better than other portrayals, though I understand Gimli's comedic portrayal in the movies. To finish that point off they seem disconnected from the greedy acquisitive Dwarves of the Nauglamir. Durin IV as he will become is far more circumspect than anything from the Tale of the Nauglafring

The critique that "Junesong" has offered, as a believer in the show, is one I agree with wholeheartedly, on the show's own merits many of the Numenorian scenes are very generic.

Have you watched it yet?

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 6, 3:28am)


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Nov 6, 5:55am

Post #39 of 47 (583 views)
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Adaptation & Writing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But my impression here is the greater amount of the criticism is as an adaption. You maybe right and I maybe wrong.


I've found that I care more, perhaps much more, how faithful an adaptation is, than even Tolkien fans here who are more willing to compromise. One may quibble about how it may or may not be faithful. Let's just say my bar is higher as a percentage of purity.

I've found most criticism after the show was airing was on the merits of the writing, including industry articles, and not the faithfulness of the adaptation. Much criticism before it aired was out of fear of a poor adaptation based upon leaks and Amazon/RoP marketing releases (puff pieces, Superfans, and trailers). So there was a natural transition.


In Reply To
Have you watched it yet?

No, but I have in no way avoided spoilers when noting and remarking upon "sources all over the internet."


fantasywind
Rivendell

Nov 6, 7:58am

Post #40 of 47 (575 views)
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Valinor and absurdities of the show [In reply to] Can't Post

How Ar-Pharazon came through,...well maybe because the Valinor WAS NO LONGER HIDDEN? I mean after the War of Wrath there was no longer need for the Enchanted Isles blockade or the shadows and magic enchantments to protect access, hell the Numenor supposedly has clear 'view' towards Aman and Eressea so the shadows seems to have been removed (one can also speculate on the fate of Enchanted Isles themselves, were they removed completely or maybe parts of them survived in any case the Numenor is closer to Aman than Middle-earth).

To me personally the show depiction of the journey to Valinor made little sense, first the whole thing about Gil-galad suddenly granting passage as a reward which is not the case each elf is individual each decided to go on own terms nobody could force the elf to do so other than elf wanting to go. So the fact that Galadriel just doesn't know what she wants, feels coerced to go (then says that her friend conspired to send her away...technically she should not know that, even Elrond didn't intiially know why Gil-galad sends her away, but hey...expecting consistency from this show is a bit too much, the characters seem to have knowledge just as the script currently demands).

Then also the manner of the journey, sure there are nice imagery and so on, but the elves just....standing the whole way motionless almost then ritualistic removal of armor for some reason by these weird veiled elf women.

What our perceptions are doesn't really matter, what matters what is Tolkien thought about it, sure he had various drafts and evolving versions, but Aman is removed from the Circles of the World that is said from appendices and this is their source material.

Undying Lands being moved to "realm of hidden things" happens in any case whatever the visual representation of it would look like, at the end of certain period, AFTER the Downfall. Absurd idea of the chunks of earth being taken away is the same absurd that has gods raise up mountains incluing the Hithaeglir being made by Morgoth himself. The Elves were supposed to visit Numenor from the West early on, the existance of the magic gate implies the Straight Road...which is another 'absurd', yet the same version with the chane of the world we also hear that removal of Aman caused "new lands" to be made to the west that were normal lands subject to death, obviously it also plays into the changing cosmology and the flat world version vs round world all along versions but that's a longer topic.

The Hiding of Valinor was specific action of the Valar for specific reason, if this is what they made to protect themselves they can just as well remove it when danger is over and the Exiles are invited to return.

*sigh* mithril and fading, this is the worst, this is basically three more or less separate concepts mashed into one, first the whole 'elf tree cancer' (how in the world does a rotting tree signify fading of Elves? No idea, for the elves are not trees :) and we have not heard of trees having special mystical connection to the life force of the Elves in any case tree and elf are two different life forms, I'd sooner expect more correlation between Ents and trees and even then the tree is a separate entity from an Ent that takes care of it) then the whole corruption/blight thing it recalls somethign else...that is 'corruption' as a concept the same sort like Shadow falling on Greenwood to taint it...in other words the direct influence of power of Morgoth or Sauron dark lord figure involving their PHYSICAL presence in the world emanating from them or the place of their physical residence, just like Morgoth tainted the Spring of Arda just by sitting in malice in Utumno and it spread from specific source. Sauron has never been to Lindon so why would the tree rot? Then the fading of the Elves which is a whole other concept involving their souls and NATURAL aging process and lastly 'fading' as in more abstract concept of the natural processes of passage of time, that is a mode in which the mortal lands are subjected to the passing of all things....as mortality and time flow usually does to everything...and this what the Elves wanted to slow down or stop in their ambition taken from their love of the mortal lands they inhabited and thus the rings as motive for "healing the hurts of the earth and adornment" of it.

It all gets dumbed down significantly to some sort of existential threat with arbitrary deadline ('before next spring' apparently though nobody knows why).


fantasywind
Rivendell

Nov 6, 9:14am

Post #41 of 47 (570 views)
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Balrog awakened bye bye Khazad-dum [In reply to] Can't Post

whatever the case may be the very plot device is pointless, what's the point of teasing the Balrog if it's not used, the only problem is if Balrog is awakened then the destruction of Khazad-dum should be nigh, otherwise there's no point to bring him up, in general it's hard to expect the foreshadowing not leading to anything, just like they teased the great wave of Numenor, still it's just another lore disrepancy with Tolkien version where Balrog was hiding in that cavern so long and slumbering undisturbed simply because it all made sense, the Dwarves have not yet exploited the mines and lodes of mithril and so did not yet expand as far towards his hiding spot in Second Age, in Tolkien there's natural progression and logical cause and effect, the mithril was getting scarce and harder to find...the Dwarves delve deeper and further and further away and this leads them to Durin's Bane hiding spot, also being already awakened by the growing malice of Sauron as he reovers in Third Age etc.

On this example one can try to use justification that the growing power of Sauron would awake the Balrog but still he should be sealed behind his self imposed exile/prison to not bother or interact with the Dwarves, or basically because the slumber is involved he was too unconcerned about what was going on because it wasn't time yet. It seems the showrunenrs cannot help themselves, they are greedy to show the things of the Third Age (including hobbits and wizard in prominent roles) even if they have all the rich events of Second to flesh out, yet still they mess up big time wiht all that condensed timeline basically rushing things.

In general the dwarven plot and all that concerns the Moria, could have taken better approach, they want to pain Khazad-dum in it's prime...well they technicaly are not yet in their greatest, because they haven't even started trading mithril which brings THE largest amount of wealth to them. They haven't developed deep friendship with the Elves of Eregion and Celebrimbor, they haven't made the West-door yet. The association with Eregion also is the factor that increases their power and brings enormous benefits to them.

Then obviously they ignore the aspects of dwarven culture as in the belief of Durin being reincarnation of Durin Deathless...hence two Durin's at the same time. While they could have made something interesting with that. I thikn they should have made the young prince Durin III because he is more crucial figure, as the ringbearer to receive the first of the Seven Rings. Yeah, I think they should have focused on that, have the old king given some other Norse name and young prince be Durin III in the making, then the depiction of how the ring would affect him personally would be more poignant. Also one can imagine a scene where the young prince looks upon a statue of his famous ancestor, in appearance identitcal to himself, and then have some inner struggle with identity, and showing that he feels the pressure of expectations due to the special reverence his people towards him, one can have him confess this to his friend Elrond or that wife of his. Anyway the Balrog is something that Tolkien would have called an anticipation, just like he wrote in a letter regarding infamous Zimmerman's script, that the guy used way too early the plot devices :).


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Nov 10, 6:39pm

Post #42 of 47 (506 views)
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Reply [In reply to] Can't Post

Just some quick bullet points.

1) On the question of the hiding of Valinor I think your observations are spot on but present to me as overtly complicated ( now you see now you don't). For the mountains to be raised up and enchantment placed before the Isles in a round world myth (the latter of which he was considering) makes sense to me. For chunks of the earth to be ripped away from a flat earth and then folded up does not. I am talking about visual adaption here, you can write anything.

2) I enjoyed your comments on Khazad Dum but I think the ring given to either III as a kind of healing of old age or IV to solidify his ambition has great storytelling potential because we are invested in both of them as sympathetic characters. The Balrog is a precursor of tragedy and the antagonist and of course Annatar logically will intervene in this thread of the story.

3) The myth of hythilagar does not work for me on several levels. The connection with the Silmaril is too convenient, the speed of fading (the tree is merely a symbol), and Gil Galad's motivations around it too.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 10, 6:45pm)


fantasywind
Rivendell

Nov 16, 5:42pm

Post #43 of 47 (414 views)
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Huh? And for other things... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Just some quick bullet points.

1) On the question of the hiding of Valinor I think your observations are spot on but present to me as overtly complicated ( now you see now you don't). For the mountains to be raised up and enchantment placed before the Isles in a round world myth (the latter of which he was considering) makes sense to me. For chunks of the earth to be ripped away from a flat earth and then folded up does not. I am talking about visual adaption here, you can write anything.

2) I enjoyed your comments on Khazad Dum but I think the ring given to either III as a kind of healing of old age or IV to solidify his ambition has great storytelling potential because we are invested in both of them as sympathetic characters. The Balrog is a precursor of tragedy and the antagonist and of course Annatar logically will intervene in this thread of the story.

3) The myth of hythilagar does not work for me on several levels. The connection with the Silmaril is too convenient, the speed of fading (the tree is merely a symbol), and Gil Galad's motivations around it too.


Why the 'chunks of the earth to be ripped away from a flat earth and then folded up' is in question anyway? It doesn't need to look like that, simply put the Aman is "taken to the realm of hidden things" magical dimensional mumbo jumbo :) that's it one doesn't need to visually dwell on it, show the cataclysm, the Change of the World, the Aman disappears voila end of story :). Tolkien certainly was reworking his cosmology and all that, doesn't matter which version the show wants to follow, their source material says that the Donwfall is accompanied by world shattering cataclysm and Change of the World that's it. That definitely would be plot device to depict the cost of all that happaned and "destruction of the beauty of the ancient world" as Tolkien put about those 'older legends'.

The character of Durin III in the show is well...barely a character at all, those few exchanges between father and son and meeting of Elrond and the king, they rather pay a not so pretty picture of an old obtuse person. The problem with the ring being given to him....well there's no point in the show's own continuity (obviously the Seven haven't even been made yet but that's not the point) the rings serve this whole convoluted plot with mithril healing the decay of elves so there's no point in giving the rings to other races if they have the purpose of serving elves :). In lore the rings indeed were supposed to serve elves only though the tradition of the Durin's Folk claiming they received the ring directly from elven-smiths and not Sauron when he was distributing the rings would be interesting to use indeed. The elves have no reason to give Durin III anything simply put Durin III in the show is angatonistic to some level towards elven efforts, if they build up the whole of dwarf -elf alliance and friendship then it would make sense as a gift for an allied king but again Durin III is against any sort of deal with the elves in any case giving him ring would not mean 'healing of old age' because there was nothing suggesting that the rings can do that :).

The whole subplot with the dwarf prince depicting him being more on the side of Elves due to personal friendly contacts would have justified him receiving the ring not his father and that's why I laid out the hypothetical reworking of that into closer to book form with storytelling narrative potential making all the more difference and emotional impact and still following the beats of story that Tolkien gave us, win win situation. The whole thing with the mythical origin of mithril was done over and over again there's not much need to repeat but it indeed does not work, and makes little sense, in any case mithril having some sort of mystical qualities relegates the role fo the rings to the material they are made of,...even though the show itself is not consistent with that...three rings made and only one is silver/mithril one hehe yet the chunk of mithril nugget was thrown into the mix of moltem metals :).


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Nov 18, 8:53am

Post #44 of 47 (394 views)
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Reply [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to say I read your post several times and disagree with the following:-

1) Even your description of how you could present the breaking of the world does not work for me.

2) My point about Ar Pharazon is not he could sail to the West but that he could set foot on the West Isles it seems so much at odds with the beautiful description and caution offered to Earendils fellow travelers. There is no mention anywhere that Men were now able to set foot on the enchanted isles whatever they could see. The drowning of his fleet and him along with it would have felt far more thematically consistent given Ulmo's very active role with his forbears. I find the description in the Akallabeth wanting in that regard and anyway ROP can not use that.

3) As regards the effect of a ring on Durin III, who might receive it as a gesture from the Elves, I said a "kind" of healing not healing quite deliberately and had in my mind Thrains poor reckless choices driven by his ring. I see the ring as a catalyst for acquisitive action which is how Mr. Tolkien saw the Dwarf rings. Put simply D 3 would in that scenario move from caution to acquisitiveness. However, D 4 is equally likely to create Moria's downfall.

4) Everyone is clear the Mithril myth has difficulties and it causes further ones elsewhere. We agree on that like everyone else.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Nov 18, 9:07am

Post #45 of 47 (390 views)
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No compromise from me. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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I've found that I care more, perhaps much more, how faithful an adaptation is, than even Tolkien fans here who are more willing to compromise. One may quibble about how it may or may not be faithful. Let's just say my bar is higher as a percentage of purity.


Nothing matches the Professor's own words, where the film's work is elsewhere, in the visuals and some of the ensemble spectacles, the gathering of the Rohirrim for example. In the Rings films in terms of storytelling, I enjoyed the way Aragorn and Arwen's story was brought out of the appendices but the construction of the 2nd and 3rd films led to so much being lost. So I see the films as deeply flawed and the Hobbit unwatchable. So it would be an understatement to say I believe they lacked purity.

ROP is covering a period that is set out in a few dry descriptions in the form of annals and much of it, particularly Galadriel, emerges out of a tradition that is far from fixed.

For me, I cannot get to pure about a few pages of appendices and I am genuinely curious how they turn that material into a coherent story with closely drawn characterization.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 18, 9:10am)


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Nov 18, 9:18pm

Post #46 of 47 (367 views)
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Anthropic Principle Of Rings of Power, Etc. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
ROP is covering a period that is set out in a few dry descriptions in the form of annals and much of it, particularly Galadriel, emerges out of a tradition that is far from fixed.

For me, I cannot get to pure about a few pages of appendices and I am genuinely curious how they turn that material into a coherent story with closely drawn characterization.


I understand this, giving Rings of Power the benefit of the reality of only what they have rights to do. I don't limit my thoughts to that, really. They perhaps should not have attempted this project without full rights to all works necessary to tell this story. Tolkien himself seemed happy enough to prevent such a thing, precluding the chance for these criticisms to arise. Tolkien notwithstanding, the Tolkien Estate dooms all such projects when they insist on fracturing any production's full potential by refusing to license the full history of Middle-earth (I.e., The Silmarillion, etc.) such that nothing has a chance to be as excellent and complete as Tolkien's work.


(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Nov 18, 9:20pm)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Nov 18, 10:05pm

Post #47 of 47 (362 views)
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Enjoyed your reply and agree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
ROP is covering a period that is set out in a few dry descriptions in the form of annals and much of it, particularly Galadriel, emerges out of a tradition that is far from fixed.

For me, I cannot get to pure about a few pages of appendices and I am genuinely curious how they turn that material into a coherent story with closely drawn characterization.


I understand this, giving Rings of Power the benefit of the reality of only what they have rights to do. I don't limit my thoughts to that, really. They perhaps should not have attempted this project without full rights to all works necessary to tell this story. Tolkien himself seemed happy enough to prevent such a thing, precluding the chance for these criticisms to arise. Tolkien notwithstanding, the Tolkien Estate dooms all such projects when they insist on fracturing any production's full potential by refusing to license the full history of Middle-earth (I.e., The Silmarillion, etc.) such that nothing has a chance to be as excellent and complete as Tolkien's work.


I have said it will take some years to really get a sense of how successful ROP will be BUT I am already convinced that your point is spot on. Through being boxed in the writers have been forced to build an alternative foundation for the story, almost like restoring a beautiful old building with a false floor, and yet for all their failings, they have shown skill at getting to the quixotic. flawed young Elves of Aman showing how much story is there.

The question will tantalize now. If they had access to characterization at least, would they have begun with a seemingly repentant Sauron before Eonwe who Galadriel never quite trusted and therefore refused the summons to Aman and Sauron himself, or a tortured Maglor, who could have mistaken the discovery of Mithril for a lost Silmaril but leads to the Elven Rings or Maedros (surviving) vying for Sauron's place in middle earth (a decent invention in my mind) rather than watered-down versions and echos and that's before you get on to telling those wonderful man-centered stories of the first age left incomplete by Mr. Tolkien to different degrees.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 18, 10:08pm)

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