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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: TV Discussion: The Rings of Power:
**Spoilers and theory* ROP might not follow the events of the S.A like we believe they will.

Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Oct 3, 10:36am

Post #1 of 14 (449 views)
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**Spoilers and theory* ROP might not follow the events of the S.A like we believe they will. Can't Post

All the major events of the S.A will happen, but it won't be like it was described in the appendices or what they have the rights to.

If Halbrand is indeed the Annatar of the show, everything leading up to the fall of Numenor might be very different, because Sauron already visited the island. This is my idea of what the show could do.

The Southlanders with their new king will relocate to another place to set up their little kingdom. Maybe closer to Eregion if Sauron wants to devise his masterplan of fooling Celebrimbor to make the rings of power and the one.

The Southland will establish a new relationship with Numenor and trade commences. Thanks to the trade with Numenor, Halbrand will get a fairer look thanks to Numenorean clothing and other treasures they can provide.

He will then use his good relationship with Galadriel to be involved in the mithril stuff with Celebrimbor and somehow works his way to be working with the elven smith to create the rings. Celebrimbor makes the ONE to him and he will take it to Barad-dur where the orcs has been building it for years(maybe a decade time jump)to complete it. Gil-Galad, Elrond and Galadriel with their rings sense something is wrong and takes it off. Sauron gets angry, but cannot reveal his disguise. He starts the war against by making a decoy of himself, making everyone believe it is Sauron leading the army against Celebrimbor. But in reality, it's just another corrupted human(Waldreg or a newly ringwraith for example)pretending to be the dark lord himself.

The battle probably be somewhat similar to what we know, with the exception of Ar-Pharazon arrives with a great host with Miriel at his side and decimates the Mordor army completely. They take out the decoy and everyone believes Sauron is vanquished. Sauron is enraged by this defeat and hellbent on destroying the Men of Westerness. This enact Sauron's second plan: Corrupting Numenor from within.

Halbrand the king of the Southlands travels frequently to Numenor and work himself up to be Ar-Pharazon trusted friend. The scheming will go like we know, getting Numenoreans to go against the Valar by persecuting the Faithful and building the temple of Morgoth to sacrifice them. Halbrand convince Ar-Pharazon since they managed to vanquished a god, they are too powerful to be stopped and urged them to attack Valinor and conquer it for themselves. So everything goes as we know it: The great armada travels to Valinor etc. Numenor sinks, Miriel tries to plea for mercy at the top of Meneltarma and perish with island. The Faithful with Elendil and Isildur sails to ME. Halbrand panicks and tries to escape as well, but the island gets washed away before he can. He loses his human form and can only have a dark lord form from now on. Elendil, Isildur, Galadriel, Gil-Galad and Elrond now knows Halbrand was Sauron all along.

From the sinking of Numenor, I feel they will follow closely to appendices when it comes the establishement of exiled realms that will eventually lead to the War of the Last Alliance.

From what we seen so far, the show does take a lot of liberties on certain things. Wouldn't suprised me if they went like I described. Would I be up for it? Yes. Why? Because everything that Tolkien wrote still happens and it doesn't contradict that much. It's just how things leading up to major events are different.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 3, 11:03am

Post #2 of 14 (434 views)
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Some things I cannot see [In reply to] Can't Post

I am 100% certain the One will be forged by Sauron alone in the Sammath Naur. Even one of the showrunners mentioned this to be one of the scenes he is most looking forward to in the Second Age.

I am also sure Sauron will personally and openly be in Numenor. That is the point. They are not tricked by who they are letting in... The knowingly follow him. That is one of the corner stones of why their punishment is so Old Testamentarian.

If Halbrand is Sauron I don't think that Galadriel will be a key to the Elves for him. She will be his nemesis... And probably sooner or later be joined by Elrond and Gil-galad (not sure whether Gil-galad isn't already more on the cautious side regarding what Celebrimbor is doing but not letting Elrond in on his suspicions, yet).




What I do think is likely to happen:

Their might be time-jumps. After the Fall of Numenor a bigger jump would help to show more of how Gondor and Arnor develop. Could also see one between the Forging of the One and the Eregion War/Nazgul stuff. But not huge jumps, for the former 10-30 at the most. For the latter only a few years. There might also be at least a couple of months between Seasons 1 and 2.

Southlanders being part of the Numenorean colonization stories

The defeat of Sauron after the sack of Eregion and his captivation merged to one event

Creation of Nazgul playing a big part of the story in Season 3, as well as handing out the 7 (hopefully with more scenes about the other Dwarven Kingdoms)



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 3, 11:10am)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Oct 3, 11:17am

Post #3 of 14 (425 views)
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Hope you're right [In reply to] Can't Post

and I'm wrong. Most likely the events of the 2nd age will play out mostly like it does from the books. But I think from what we seen so far, we must be prepared for some major changes.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 3, 11:49am

Post #4 of 14 (414 views)
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Certainly [In reply to] Can't Post

That is for sure.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Junesong
Rohan


Oct 3, 11:57am

Post #5 of 14 (409 views)
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Yes and no [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't necessarily agree with your sketch of how things will play out but I think you're totally right that it will defy our expectations. If I've learned one thing from these six episodes, it's that they're playing fast and loose with the source material. And the 2nd Age material is already pretty loose.

I'm not precious about it.

The 2nd Age especially, is fertile ground for storytelling. I'm excited to see what they do. I'm even more excited to see how they weave the things I'm expecting into the things I'm not.

"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 3, 3:29pm

Post #6 of 14 (341 views)
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Time Jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What I do think is likely to happen:

Their might be time-jumps. After the Fall of Numenor a bigger jump would help to show more of how Gondor and Arnor develop. Could also see one between the Forging of the One and the Eregion War/Nazgul stuff. But not huge jumps, for the former 10-30 at the most. For the latter only a few years. There might also be at least a couple of months between Seasons 1 and 2.

Southlanders being part of the Numenorean colonization stories

The defeat of Sauron after the sack of Eregion and his captivation merged to one event

Creation of Nazgul playing a big part of the story in Season 3, as well as handing out the 7 (hopefully with more scenes about the other Dwarven Kingdoms)


There can't be too many time jumps as we already have our major human players for the end of the Second Age. Canonically, Isildur was 234 years old when he died so we potentially have a couple of centuries or so to work with (possibly significantly less due to further compression).

Making the (surviving) Southlanders part of the story of Numenorean colonization does make a lot of sense.

There needs to be some passage of time between the sack of Eregion and the captivity of Sauron. The Dark Lord needs some time to distribute the Seven and the Nine Rings. It also takes time for a Ring-bearer to become a Nazgul. The Ringwraiths should emerge before Sauron is taken to Numenor. Sauron is going to need them around to manage his lands in Middle-earth while he's gone.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 3, 3:43pm

Post #7 of 14 (332 views)
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That is what I meant [In reply to] Can't Post

There won't be big time jumps if there are any.

But there might be some shorter ones and potentially 1-2 bigger ones (the lifetimes of the Numenoreans would allow that).

Agree with your proposed time jump... But I think we will need another one for the establishment of the Kingdoms.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Oct 3, 4:21pm

Post #8 of 14 (320 views)
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Precious [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...they're playing fast and loose with the source material.


Against representations otherwise. Does that bother no one anymore?


In Reply To
I'm not precious about it.


Tolkien was.

I guess they call it lately "normalization."


Junesong
Rohan


Oct 3, 4:48pm

Post #9 of 14 (311 views)
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I'm not following [In reply to] Can't Post

What representations otherwise? They said they were adapting the 2nd age. They're doing that. As I said in my previous post, Tolkien's 2nd age is already really loose.

Tolkien was precious about it because he was tying multiple fantasy worlds together in a believable subcreation. He dedicated his life to it.

Amazon is trying to make an entertaining show set in the same world while pulling together the great events like points in a constellation.

They are doing different things in different ways.

I think more "normalizing" of this would be good.

"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 3, 4:52pm

Post #10 of 14 (312 views)
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Matter of perspective [In reply to] Can't Post

So far they have covered a lot that Tolkien simply doesn't talk about but that happened one way or the other or stuff we knew are made up and/or extended. They haven't really done anything, yet, they said they wouldn't do unless one would deny their intend to make this feel like Tolkien's SA.

This is discussed here in many threads. People disagree on whether they achieved this or not. I don't quite get why anyone would come to the conclusion that nobody is bothered by it. Or what might be .ore fitting: A lot of people certainly care. Whether they are then bothered by it depends on the execution, I guess.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 5, 3:16am

Post #11 of 14 (173 views)
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A Prediction for the Season Finale [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we might see this in Episode 8 (or maybe in the premiere of Season 2):

While Míriel is still away Tar-Palantir will die. Pharazôn is already acting as regent and will (probably) seize the sceptre at this time. If he does, and declares himself Ar-Pharazôn then he will force Míriel to wed him to further secure his power.

If this does not occur here then it will be at the end of the second season or be a part the Season 3 premiere. No later than that.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 5, 3:17am)


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Oct 5, 5:47am

Post #12 of 14 (163 views)
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I hope they wait... [In reply to] Can't Post

...until at least the second half of season 2 for Pharazôn to pull off his coup. (This assumes the coup will happen in ROP, because, like, surely it must? But those feel like famous last words.) Míriel and Pharazôn were pretty much on the same page until Míriel had her White Tree-driven reassessment of priorities, but their goals remain aligned for the time being. I'd like to see the show dig into Númenórean politics a little more before upending the status quo; get a sense of what the cultural divide looks like before the King's Men decide to throw out the rulebook.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 5, 8:30am

Post #13 of 14 (146 views)
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Death [In reply to] Can't Post

I also think that we will soon see Tar-Palantir die.

I think, though, that this happens when Miriel is back or at least that Pharazon doesn't start his coup right away but that once she is Queen without an heir, the pressure on her to marry and make Pharazon king (and Kemen heir, I guess) is increasing.l upon her return to Numenor.

The death of the King and the question of succession would be a good way to end the Numenor plotline for Season 1.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 5, 8:31am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 5, 2:32pm

Post #14 of 14 (110 views)
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When the Queen(-regent) is away... [In reply to] Can't Post

I do have reasons for thinking that Tar-Palantir will die before Míriel returns to Númenor:

The King might see another vision in the Seeing-stone that shows the eruption of Orodruin, leading him to believe that his daughter is dead. Pharazôn either learns of this vision or sees it for himself. Tar-Palantir dies of grief.

Believing that Míriel is dead, Pharazôn takes up the sceptre and declares himself Ar-Pharazôn. Upon the return of the fleet the newly installed King proposes that a union between Míriel and himself is the best way to unite Númenor despite their kinship as cousins.

Of course this does not have to play out as described, but Míriel's absence provides a perfect opportunity to make the leap to Ar-Pharazôn. I'll be interested to see how the show actually does deal with this.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

 
 

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