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**SPOILERS** The Lord Of Gifts theory
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Oct 1, 12:13am

Post #1 of 31 (930 views)
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**SPOILERS** The Lord Of Gifts theory Can't Post

If I remember correctly, Annatar is only mentioned in the Silmarillion and not in the Lotr appendices right? If yes, then Halbrand or The Stranger are the ''Annatar'' of the show. Now, I think more and more Halbrand is likely Sauron the way he acts and from last night episode with him and Adar.

So this is how I think it will play out if Halbrand is Sauron:

He is now king of the Southlands and will be a trusted friend of Galadriel. She introduced him to Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor. Halbrand offers Celebrimbor his service to be his forgemaster. He demonstrate to the elven smith that he is very skillful with forging stuff and together they work together to forge the rings of power. Gil-Galad suspects something is wrong and convince Galadriel this guy is no good. She investigates him and finds out he is really the dark lord. That will instigate the War of Sauron and Elves that we will surely see either next season or season three.


(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Oct 1, 12:22am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 1, 1:28am

Post #2 of 31 (871 views)
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We cannot rule out Annatar [In reply to] Can't Post

We have already seen elements in the show that are not drawn from The Hobbit, The Lord or the Rings or the appendices. Sauron could yet appear as Annatar.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Oct 1, 1:41am

Post #3 of 31 (862 views)
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Even if Halbrand is Sauron... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I'd imagine ROP still has some sort of Annatar analogue, whether or not they use the name Annatar itself. Halbrand is evidently a talented metalsmith, but as soon as he tried to instruct Celebrimbor in Ring-lore, he would out himself as not actually a human. At least, I'd think that must give up the game. Then again, if the fan theorists are correct that Gil-galad and Celebrimbor are actually mistaken about Elves needing mithril tanning beds, then maybe they're dumb enough to fall for "Halbrand, Lord of Gifts." :V


Bladerunner
Gondor


Oct 1, 3:05am

Post #4 of 31 (840 views)
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I think the Southlands will no longer exist... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He is now king of the Southlands and will be a trusted friend of Galadriel.


..and will now be called Mordor.

Survivors may relocate to the White Mountains.

If Halbrand is Sauron, my guess is that his body would mysteriously "disappear" as a casualty of the explosion, and he would take on a new guise.

If Halbrand survives then I would lean towards him eventually becoming the Witchking or the Oathbreaker.

In the meantime, the Stranger appears to be going through a painful transformation in this image.
The joints of his hand are contorting unnaturally, as if about to morph into a Balrog (perhaps triggered by the explosion of Mt. Doom?).



Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Oct 1, 7:28am

Post #5 of 31 (774 views)
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How Long Can The Suspension of The Truth Go On [In reply to] Can't Post

Your post got me thinking about how long "Sauron" can legitimately remain unknown to the key players in Eregion.

If a splendid Maia arrives then 'we" know immediately and how long would the audience remain engaged watching everyone being taken in. It is a march to the inevitable.

So far we have been sidelined by Sauron's plan being enacted but not by Sauron, a neat flip if not Tolkien.

What if two characters arrive in Eregion and seek to give council and gifts, but in their own very different and idiosyncratic ways?

One may warn against the other. Continuing this who is Sauron vibe may have some way to run and they may use Tolkien's approach that Annatar anticipated the Istari.

Halbrand is involved and Galadriel is with him and she is the one in cannon who had the first misgivings. The complication now is the bond with him.

So, in general, looking at the way they are writing they may well opt for a slow burn and in terms of everyone being taken in and fooled that makes sense after all we are already caught up in the deceit, trying to work it out.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Oct 1, 11:29am

Post #6 of 31 (723 views)
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Ithilien could be a new home for the Southlanders? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are many places they can relocate now. White Mountains as you mentioned is a good alternative.

The Stranger is still my 2nd candidate for being Sauron.


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Oct 1, 12:01pm

Post #7 of 31 (705 views)
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Since he is king... [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe Celebrimbor thinks he has been blessed by Eru for his talent and decides to let Halbrand work with him?


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Oct 1, 12:13pm

Post #8 of 31 (705 views)
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The creaking... [In reply to] Can't Post

Reminds me very much of the sound we have heard in both An Unexpected Journey and The Fellowship when Gandalf gets angry. So did the "I won't say anything, but that's right"-chuckle The Stranger made concerning Nori's mothers' snoring. I'm still thinking the Stranger is Gandalf.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell


Oct 1, 3:30pm

Post #9 of 31 (642 views)
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I'm still waiting [In reply to] Can't Post

for the 'Nori is Sauron' theory.

But in all seriousness I am enjoying the suspense and how they have managed to keep us guessing.


50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings


UtumnoSkirmish
The Shire


Oct 1, 8:18pm

Post #10 of 31 (558 views)
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Creaking [In reply to] Can't Post

I noticed it as well, and you could very well be right. Just like with the cold fire though, there is still the question of whether this is specific to Olorin, or is something that could happen if any Maia exerted his powers.

Concerning the idea of Gandalf in the show as a whole, I saw a very interesting theory someone posted under an article on another site. The idea is that The Stranger is Gandalf as he "wandered out of space and time" after his fight with the Balrog...

Obviously, all of the usual issues with time travel are present with this theory. Still, I have to admit that it fits certain facts quite cleanly.

Why The Stranger is so discombobulated. Why The Stranger is so weakened initially. Why The Stranger has such a sense of urgency about him, as if he must get on with some crucial errand.

At the same time, we have to consider what I feel is the most shocking development of the show so far: Adar's assertion that he "killed" Sauron.

Naturally, Adar could be lying. After all, this guy Sauron is not so easy to kill. In that case, Adar is probably Sauron himself.

If he's telling the truth though, Sauron's death would have to be incorporated into what they are doing with the show. All of the speculation above regarding Olorin would apply to the stranger. A Maia weakened by death who doesn't quite remember who they are.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 1, 8:31pm

Post #11 of 31 (551 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

...we can't rule out that Adar might be telling the truth as he knows it, but could be wrong about killing Sauron. Obviously, Sauron cannot be dead, but that doesn't mean that Adar is lying.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


UtumnoSkirmish
The Shire


Oct 1, 9:45pm

Post #12 of 31 (519 views)
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true [In reply to] Can't Post

Having apparently dealt with them (Morgoth, Sauron) for a while, I would have expected him to have made sure. I would imagine a situation similar to when the ring gets cut from his finger- there was never any doubt that he was "gone."

However, sure, it's possible that he just grievously wounded Sauron, or forced him into some sort of prolonged retreat. This might fit in better with the Halbrand theory- perhaps Adar disrupted Saruon's reformation.

It's hard to say with so little information (when did this supposed killing happen). I've been wondering about the possible use of flashbacks by he show- that would be a great one to see.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Oct 1, 11:12pm

Post #13 of 31 (503 views)
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This is what crossed my mind this time: [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not saying I necessarily think this is the case, but it did cross my mind when Adar said he killed Sauron:

Perhaps Adar has a multiple personality, like Gollum/Smeagol, and Sauron is one personality (or even a separate entity possessing him.) He may think he "killed" that personality by overcoming it, as Nuclear Galadriel did in LotR, and as Smeagol thought he did. But Adar may be deluded about that.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Sauron were Halbrand or the Stranger. It's intriguing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Oct 1, 11:13pm)


UtumnoSkirmish
The Shire


Oct 2, 1:21am

Post #14 of 31 (474 views)
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I like the idea [In reply to] Can't Post

Certainly, the way Adar talks about Sauron and seems to not even want to hear his name is strange.

There was also the line where Adar said that he wasn't a god - "at least, not yet." Surely he wasn't simply referring to the creation of Mordor. What did he mean?

That's one of the big outstanding questions, along with how and why Waldreg believes Meteor Man somehow heralds the coming of Sauron.


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 2, 11:36am

Post #15 of 31 (389 views)
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I think episode 6..... [In reply to] Can't Post

... made it less likely that Halbrand is Sauron. I've never thought he is, so maybe I'm biased, but when he seemed about to kill Adar and Adar was taunting him with 'was it something I did to your woman... to your child' (or something like that) there was real pain in Halbrand's face, especially, I thought, at the mention of the child.

I don't think the Stranger is Sauron either, so that leaves me with the 'we haven't seen him yet' option!

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 2, 11:39am

Post #16 of 31 (388 views)
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Yeah... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I also thought that the child really seemed to increase Halbrand's anger and pain.

It would be really weird if that was Sauron's reaction to the guy who destroyed his form... The only way I could see this is that it makes him angry that Adar doesn't recognize him.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 2, 11:46am

Post #17 of 31 (384 views)
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Recognizing.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that's another good point. If Halbrand were Sauron and expected to be recognized as such as he is, doesn't that reduce Sauron the Great, fallen Maia, to the level of an ordinary man?

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan

Oct 2, 12:34pm

Post #18 of 31 (373 views)
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What’s interesting is that [In reply to] Can't Post

I don’t think Adar can really know who Halbrand is, given that he subsequently asks him “who are you?” in the following scene, so his question is likely a hypothetical, unless the emphasis is on the word who, in which case Adar would essentially be trying to suss out his motivations.

He could also be drawing attention to the fact that Sauron was abusing his own “children,” ie the orcs that Sauron experimented on that led to Adar cutting Sauron open.

But my reading is that Adar does not recognize him and that the wife / child line is a red herring. But I also recognize that that makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Oct 2, 1:14pm

Post #19 of 31 (368 views)
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This would explain why [In reply to] Can't Post

Waldreg seemed sure that Adar was Sauron. And note that when Adar says "You think I'm Sauron?" he sounds offended, but he doesn't deny it. But of course it all may be a red herring.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Oct 2, 1:20pm

Post #20 of 31 (364 views)
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I hadn't thought of that, but it's poignant. [In reply to] Can't Post

When Adar says "Maybe a child?" he could be defending himself by saying that's what Halbrand did to him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Annael
Immortal


Oct 2, 7:33pm

Post #21 of 31 (303 views)
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once again, with you [In reply to] Can't Post

I can believe that Adar thinks he killed Sauron - as we know, a Maia's corporeal form can be destroyed and yet they can take shape again. So I'm inclined to think we haven't seen Sauron yet. I'm sticking to the idea that Halbrand will be the king who fails of his oath to Isildur and becomes the King of the Dead. Back to Adar: I'm also liking the idea that one of the Elves whom Morgoth warped to become the first Uruk hates Sauron and wants to create his own kingdom of Orcs . . . but when Sauron takes form again, he'll take over and probably kill Adar (if Adar survived the volcano).

But first, I suspect, he'll build Dol Guldur, and then he has to seduce the Elves and then the Numenoreans. All while Elendil & co. are settling Ithilien and Gondor and building all the cool stuff they do, which they need a time of peace to accomplish.

I am a dreamer of words, of written words.
-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Oct 2, 8:15pm

Post #22 of 31 (287 views)
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yep, I'm with this idea... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I can believe that Adar thinks he killed Sauron - as we know, a Maia's corporeal form can be destroyed and yet they can take shape again. So I'm inclined to think we haven't seen Sauron yet. I'm sticking to the idea that Halbrand will be the king who fails of his oath to Isildur and becomes the King of the Dead. Back to Adar: I'm also liking the idea that one of the Elves whom Morgoth warped to become the first Uruk hates Sauron and wants to create his own kingdom of Orcs . . . but when Sauron takes form again, he'll take over and probably kill Adar (if Adar survived the volcano).

But first, I suspect, he'll build Dol Guldur, and then he has to seduce the Elves and then the Numenoreans. All while Elendil & co. are settling Ithilien and Gondor and building all the cool stuff they do, which they need a time of peace to accomplish.


Goals: crazy dragon lady, mermaid (for the rest, just see my profile)

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying... (JRR Tolkien, Legolas Song of the Sea)








Arannir
Valinor


Oct 3, 10:02am

Post #23 of 31 (215 views)
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Good point [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot that Dol Guldur is older than Barad-dur.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 3, 11:24am

Post #24 of 31 (199 views)
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I'm wondering if what we've seen so far of Sauron.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is the corruption seeping through Middle-earth. There's the elven tree: Gil-Galad appears to think the blight affecting that is unique to the elves. We know it isn't, because we've seen the diseased cow in the Southlands, a very long way from Lindon, so there are probably similar things going on all over - didn't the harfoots comment on the changes to the wood where they were when we saw them last? It's like the corruption spreading from Dol Guldur that turned Greenwood the Great into Mirkwood, but on a wider scale, and in the same way I suspect it's a sign of Sauron's presence and activity - it ties in with what Adar said about Sauron after Morgoth fell.
I think Adar did survive because there was a glimpse of the barn where he was, still intact, and he was no longer there.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Narvi
Lorien

Oct 3, 11:30am

Post #25 of 31 (195 views)
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It’s not [In reply to] Can't Post

Dol Guldur was only built by ca. T.A. 1100, whereas Barad-dur was built in the Second Age. Unless you’re referring to Sauron rebuilding Barad-dur in the Third Age, in which case disregard this!

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