Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: TV Discussion: The Rings of Power:
**Spoiler** Halbrand is likely............
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Annael
Immortal


Sep 29, 2:56pm

Post #26 of 52 (462 views)
Shortcut
the trouble with internet searches [In reply to] Can't Post

is that you can find support for any point of view. Kinda like the Bible! For instance, I did a search on "prequels that are better than the original" and found "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" being promoted as better than "Ark of the Covenant." Yeah no.

Bad scriptwriting to me is anything that takes me out of the moment AFTER I've willingly agreed to suspend my disbelief and go along with the premise of the story. People who are dead set against the premise before they even see it are probably only going to find fault with everything, so they are not good judges of whether it's done well or not. (I say that and then must admit that while I disliked most Ben Stiller comedies as juvenile and unfunny, "Zoolander" won me over despite myself, and my not-a-fan-of-Will Ferrell brother absolutely loved "Stranger than Fiction," so sometimes really good writing trumps bias.) But if i go in willing to be entertained and then find myself going "wait, how did we get here from there?" or "that doesn't make sense," or "that's inconsistent with what I know of the situation or the character," or even "this movie relies way too heavily on exposition instead of just showing us," then it's bad writing.

(I get paid to coach writers, if that gives my opinion any validity . . .)

I am a dreamer of words, of written words.
-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 29, 4:50pm

Post #27 of 52 (440 views)
Shortcut
POVs [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
the trouble with internet searches is that you can find support for any point of view.


LOL. Well, yeah. Tell me where that doesn't happen. I use that feature when I review products or services I need by tacking on "sucks" to anything I'm considering for a purchase. Or, say, Rings of Power reviews, or any other show that demands an investment of time.


Fichtenbrenner
Bree


Sep 30, 12:30pm

Post #28 of 52 (381 views)
Shortcut
The exchange between him and Adar [In reply to] Can't Post

... really made me believe after today's episode that the leaks about him being Sauron were true.

Nothing against the actor, he is surely good looking, but I don't think that's what Tolkien had in mind, when he wrote about Sauron's fair form, so that's another disappointment.
Frown


skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan

Sep 30, 1:40pm

Post #29 of 52 (362 views)
Shortcut
We haven’t seen him as Annatar [In reply to] Can't Post

only Halbrand. I expect he might have appeared to Gil-galad and Celebrimbor quite differently in the past.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 30, 2:57pm

Post #30 of 52 (354 views)
Shortcut
No Annatar [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think there will be another form of him in case he is Sauron.

It wouldn't make sense for him to have had evil intentions before returning to the Southlands. He ran from there. And he was torn about going back, even when he was alone.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan

Sep 30, 4:11pm

Post #31 of 52 (340 views)
Shortcut
Basically [In reply to] Can't Post

What I’m saying is i agree that he will not present himself in a different form, but I predict that Halbrand cleans up well.


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 30, 4:24pm

Post #32 of 52 (340 views)
Shortcut
Character Parallels [In reply to] Can't Post

From all descriptions or reviews I've read, Halbrand as Sauron strikes me as a Gaius Baltar (Battlestar Galactica) more than a Sheev Palpatine (Star Wars). And that for me, isn't nearly to the level of a Sauron, meaning it seems weak.


Yistaan
The Shire

Sep 30, 7:19pm

Post #33 of 52 (299 views)
Shortcut
Wouldn't this write the show into a corner [In reply to] Can't Post

If Halbrand is Sauron, Galadriel will tell everyone and anyone not to trust him, and I find it very hard to believe that Celebrimbor will just gleefully make the rings after hearing that. If Sauron is recast before approaching Celebrimbor, the audience loses all connection with Vickers' portrayal of the character. If Charlie Vickers is shaved and put into elf ears, the audience will burst into laughter and the characters look like fools for not recognizing him.

It does seem with the leaker being correct about everything else that Halbrand is Sauron. But none of that changes the future issues that I mentioned above. I'd say having Meteor Man, who no one other than the Hobbits have met, be Sauron fits the show going forward better.


Narvi
Lorien

Sep 30, 7:24pm

Post #34 of 52 (293 views)
Shortcut
A middle road [In reply to] Can't Post

One solution would be to keep Vickers as Sauron in Dark Lord form (presuming he can act the part, which his physicality suggests he can). This would allow the casting of a separate Annatar-guise, who could share the barest hint of Vickersisms but largely play the character in a way that allows him to escape the suspicions of non-versed audience members.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan

Sep 30, 7:26pm

Post #35 of 52 (290 views)
Shortcut
This reading [In reply to] Can't Post

assumes that Galadriel will be aware that Halbrand is Sauron by the time that he is revealed as such to the audience. If he is Sauron, there’s no indication so far that she is aware and we have no information as to when she might learn about his identity. I instead suspect she would gradually come to suspect Annatar’s motives, not aware of his identity as Sauron, much as the appendices suggest

And nobody’s ever been able to tell me anything about Sauron— as Annatar appearing as an emissary of the Valar— needing to be depicted with elf ears, since #1) such a characteristic is never even delineated in the text and #2) nothing in the text delineates Annatar as an elf.

Someone please correct me if I’m missing something in the lore about either of these points.


Archestratie
Rohan


Sep 30, 10:32pm

Post #36 of 52 (256 views)
Shortcut
Heh [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What I’m saying is i agree that he will not present himself in a different form, but I predict that Halbrand cleans up well.


Well, they're sure making him look like Aragorn right now.

My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf

The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.


UtumnoSkirmish
The Shire


Oct 1, 1:31am

Post #37 of 52 (237 views)
Shortcut
He doesn't necessarily have those ears [In reply to] Can't Post

however, he does pose as an emissary from the Valar. In other words, either an elf, a Maia, or one of the Valar themselves. A mortal man doesn't fit there. Besides: how could a mere man attain so much deep and unprecedented knowledge about the world (he's supposed to be instructing Feanor's thousand year old grandson)? I feel like Annatar needs to do his thing whether Halbrand is Sauron or not.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan

Oct 1, 4:33am

Post #38 of 52 (224 views)
Shortcut
Gotcha [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I’m not understanding what distinguishes the form of a mortal man from the form of a Maia, ie aside from age, what physical traits would separate Gandalf from Aragorn or Eomer?

All that has to happen for Annatar to come about is for Halbrand to identify himself as this ‘emissary’ and shave his beard, as far as I can see. It’s not like it took that much effort for Galadriel to buy his first visage, and he put no effort in that disguise.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 2, 10:08am

Post #39 of 52 (160 views)
Shortcut
Mhm [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if it is true in the end that they cannot use Annatar as a name to begin with... Wasn't that always in question regarding the rights?

So I wonder whether Halbrand if Sauron may openly act as the repentent Maia now there to heal ME.

I just cannot how Galadriel wouldn't instantly kill him no matter the cost for herself right now. So I do hope there will be more to it and well explained.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Oct 2, 10:39am

Post #40 of 52 (155 views)
Shortcut
I still think... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Halbrand is not Sauron.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Oct 2, 4:52pm

Post #41 of 52 (145 views)
Shortcut
Writing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I still think.Halbrand is not Sauron.


What will you think if it turns out he is? Is he not being Sauron wishful thinking about the writing, an ambivalence about the direction of the show, or simply fun speculation about something you are enjoying anyway?

I ask because I like to see people making a commitment about their estimation of the writing quality should the writers choose some path the viewers think is great or decide without equivocation that's they should have done a better job.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Oct 2, 8:33pm

Post #42 of 52 (126 views)
Shortcut
I will... [In reply to] Can't Post

Enjoy the show anyway, but for me, it would not be the best scenario if Halbrand is Sauron. Hè does just not "feel" like Sauron to me. So, I think and hope Halbrand is not Sauron.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 2, 9:10pm

Post #43 of 52 (122 views)
Shortcut
I find that a little strange. [In reply to] Can't Post

So you would like us to commit to how we will react if the writers and showrunners take the show a certain way?

Why? What would you do with that information? If I know say I would hate Halbrand being Sauron and then I end up liking the reveal and posting it here, would you then say "See, you like whatever they throw at you despite the fact you said you would hate this path and now you still don't agree the writing is bad?" You seem to be very confident in your assessment of the writing shared some of the links to Reddits and articles that supported your view (I assume you remain decides not to watch the show)... Would such a change of assesement by people here work as proof to you that the writing is objectively bad and just a certain group of fans will approve? Or are you trying to test whether some of us might be hypocritical or dishonest about our views?

I certainly sighed when I saw they would include a Human/Elf love story... But it was simply far better executed so far than I thought it would and I started to care for the characters and their storylines. Would never anticipated that.

I can commit to the feeling that I simply cannot see right now how they would explain Halbrand being Sauron in a satisfying manner. By something I would call good writing. But if I end up liking their offer, I won't go searching for reasons so I can stay true to some sort of commitment I made before I actually watched it, if you understand what I mean.


(By the way, this is not meant as an attack. I told you before I find it generally interesting that we can discuss the show here also with someone who has kind of an outside view and hasn't seen it. I just really don't get why you want that kind of commitment and would like to hear your interest in that.)



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Eldy
Tol Eressea


Oct 3, 2:56am

Post #44 of 52 (102 views)
Shortcut
Form of a Maia [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I guess I’m not understanding what distinguishes the form of a mortal man from the form of a Maia, ie aside from age, what physical traits would separate Gandalf from Aragorn or Eomer?

All that has to happen for Annatar to come about is for Halbrand to identify himself as this ‘emissary’ and shave his beard, as far as I can see. It’s not like it took that much effort for Galadriel to buy his first visage, and he put no effort in that disguise.


Based on book lore (which may or may not be of any relevance to the show on this particular topic), there are very few limits to what the form of a Maia could be. Maiar and Valar were both naturally disembodied spirits, and when they chose to assume a physical form (called a fana in Quenya; plural fanar) it could be any number of things. The Ainulindalë tells us the Valar "took shape after that manner which they had beheld [Elves and Men] in the Vision of Ilúvatar," but also that they "are not at all times" in such form. The Istari are a unique case in that they were "clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned" (UT, The Istari) and had many of their natural abilities restricted, but Olórin/Gandalf, before becoming an Istar, often "walked among [Elves] unseen, or in form as one of them" (TS, Valaquenta). In my experience, fans tend to assume the humanoid forms of Ainur when not hiding their true nature were based on Elvish bodies, but there's no reason they couldn't take a more human appearance. Though I don't think book!Annatar did, since looking like a Human would probably be counterproductive to getting Elves to take him seriously as an emissary of the Valar.


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Oct 3, 3:02am

Post #45 of 52 (104 views)
Shortcut
Commitment [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So you would like us to commit to how we will react if the writers and showrunners take the show a certain way?

Why? What would you do with that information?


I wouldn't know until it's all in context, when the events of the show have resolved, the final intent of the writing is clear, and that it was badly done, obvious, or hoodwinked everyone - even the critics and speculation in a shocking display of storywriting genius. I just enjoy discussions more when people take a position, and we can compare notes on that, instead of preemptively equivocating on "Well, A or B could happen, maybe even C, unless D." Yep, that about covers the obvious, thanks, you were absolutely right. Eyeroll. I like commitment and accountability.


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Oct 3, 3:08am

Post #46 of 52 (102 views)
Shortcut
For my part... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I like commitment and accountability.


...I like being able to relax while watching movies/TV and experience natural emotional responses instead of worrying about positions I've committed to and how people might try to hold me "accountable" for them. This is not serious business.


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Oct 3, 3:17am

Post #47 of 52 (98 views)
Shortcut
Bummed Amnesia [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Based on book lore ... there are very few limits to what the form of a Maia could be.


It was always a bummer to me that Gandalf, and so I assume any of his kind, seemed to suffer severe amnesia of anything outside their human existence. I can only imagine they would learn nothing, no greater wisdom, from one existence to the next. That saddens me. And yet he would say, "Understand Frodo, I would use this Ring from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine." His awareness of his own true nature seems to conflict with established lore as I understand it.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 3, 3:29am

Post #48 of 52 (94 views)
Shortcut
Hear, hear! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


fantasywind
Rivendell

Oct 5, 6:41pm

Post #49 of 52 (50 views)
Shortcut
Examples of show's writing [In reply to] Can't Post

One can add the biggest example of really bad writing...the atrociously bad dialogues! They are TRYING to grasp Tolkien's high sounding style, BUT they are not really good at it, Tolkien's dialogue had meaning, epic sounding lines or gravitas to it, the dialogues in the show are either nonsensical convoluted metaphors or sentences trying to sound like pearls of wisdom but often not correlating to what we see, in context of the scene or there are spoken lines that clearly explain what we see as if assuming the audience is dumb, then also repeating the same message with different wording (example in first episode the elf companion says: "surely, it is lost to the ages now. Whatever happened here was long ago." basically repeating the same thing in two sentences with different wording).

Other examples of bad writing: one can immedaitely see how contrived various plot points are, events just...happen, overreliance on the 'chance encounters' or fate, sometimes things happen because plot demands it or characters have knowledge they shouldn't have like Galadriel saying in episode that "friend conspired to send me away to Valinor" though technically she shouldn't know that, king granted her the passage (itself quite problematic from lore perspective) and she went through with it, only changing mind at the last second. Also the elven watch over Tirharad, HOW do the elves know they need to establish garrison in this specific place that will become Mordor? Have they read the script? In general the idea that elves would occupy this area and guard it makes little sense, it's so far removed from the sphere of inlfuence of elven realm of Lindon, it;s far outside the scope of their interests. Also there is no REASON for them to be there! The only argumentation is that the people here served Morgoth, that's it, but what do they guard....a bunch of peasants and small villlages, they are not a threat, neither are they horde of dangerous warrior tribes or anything that would make more sense! This watch reminds one of the Gondorian watch over Mordor EXCEPT Gondor KNEW that it's Black Land of the Enemy, they fought there, and knew there are remnants of dark creatures from which they must guard and prevent the enemy or anyone else from claiming that land in defense of Gondor and other lands beyond!

Then there is general lack of realism, actual realistic reactions of people, sometimes actions serve no purpose and leave no consequences (Elrond participating in the rock smashing contest which apparently once lost by him would mean him banned from all dwarven territory...obviously no such consequences happen, even if he loses the match on purpose or rather gives up to save the face of Durin his friend and have him talk to him).

Then there is the thing about Galadriel in Numenor being all about returning to Middle-earth and Numenoreans not being pleased with having elf on the island and one would think natural thing would be to ship her off the isle, as soon as possible ....but they take their time having her stay and have freedom of movement, only later when Galadriel is pushy enough and insulting finally some consequence happens with her being imprisoned. The plot demands her presence to move forward so it must be this way...but the more natural way and solution to all those problem would be simply to...have Gil-galad send Galadriel on purpose to Numenor with diplomatic mission! This would be both learning experience for her and would serve to have her busy for a while, if Gil-galad wanted her off for a time and voila everything would have been done all narrative goals fulfilled!

The main point I guess is too much forced drama that doesn't really serve much purpose other than prolong the run time. Even when things could have been more efficient and also time could have been used to explore important themes!

Then one can add all the minor details that make all the things happening so much worse and seemingly stupid, characters being just as smart as the writers currently want them to be but then suddenly showing unexpected knowledge that wasn't even hinted before.

Some of the biggest contrivances in the plot though is the fact that after Galadriel has been hunting for Sauron or any sign of his prescene for CENTURIES only now after a fortunate circumstances and meetings she receives the missing clues, but in a way that make little sense, like the whole note of a human spy from times of Morgoth having entire evil plan written down (somehow the forces of evil didn't realize the plan was known) and this note has been laying in the hall of lore in Numenor of all places, for centuries. All that thing about the mark being pictographic symbol for geographic location of Mordor, all the crap about this mark is the most infuriating thing, first the mark was left on the body of Galadriel's brother, then she finds it in that northern fortress ruin, seemingly abandoned for centuries as mentioned and apparently the mark left was supposed to be roadsign for Orcs...what?! How they know what to look for? Have they been poring over maps of Middle-earth or what? :)

How does Galadriel immediately assume that the mark means Sauron is here, how does she figure out it's a clue? No idea. The elven records in Lindon also have some info on the mark but apparently in Numenor the missing links are to be found! But realistically speaking all that lore should have been known to Elves because Lindon existed before Numenor and all their records of old times would have been shared by Elves!

There are other such things, including in the latest episodes.


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Oct 5, 7:06pm

Post #50 of 52 (47 views)
Shortcut
Operatic [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The main point I guess is too much forced drama that doesn't really serve much purpose other than prolong the run time.


This sounds like a soap opera. Do they place two characters having a conversation, one with their back to the other, with the camera instead of each other? Or long reaction pauses to end a scene? ;)

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.