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*Spoilers* Episode 6 Discussion
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Arannir
Valinor


Sep 28, 4:14pm

Post #1 of 62 (2003 views)
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*Spoilers* Episode 6 Discussion Can't Post

https://twitter.com/...P1UCeeTmR4A&s=19

Some promo shots to get you started.

After listening to some interviews by the cast members, episodes 6/7 were mentioned by several people as their favourites (with the notable exception of Vickers, who liked episode 8 best). The episode was also said to feature the longest battle sequence of the season as well as the landscape changing event that will shape the last two episodes of the season (my guess is still the eruption of Orodruin).



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 28, 4:50pm

Post #2 of 62 (1924 views)
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The Twitter account... [In reply to] Can't Post

@LOTRonPrime has just posted a trailer of the battle for the Tower - strong echoes of Helm's Deep. The tweet is 'Are you ready? The battle begins this Friday...

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


TFP
Rivendell


Sep 28, 4:52pm

Post #3 of 62 (1924 views)
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torches [In reply to] Can't Post

it's a small gripe, but these orcs seem to spend too much time carrying torches for a species that's very (very) strictly nocturnal, surely they can see in the dark?


Archestratie
Rohan


Sep 28, 6:11pm

Post #4 of 62 (1891 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
it's a small gripe, but these orcs seem to spend too much time carrying torches for a species that's very (very) strictly nocturnal, surely they can see in the dark?


Are they nocturnal or do they just have a sun allergy?

My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf

The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 28, 6:25pm

Post #5 of 62 (1888 views)
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I think both ... At least some. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the prologue there is this amazing creepy scene with the Orcs in the woods and the eyes of one of them shines like the eyes of a wicked cat.

I think they do use torches in the books, don't they?



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 28, 6:26pm)


Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell


Sep 28, 6:31pm

Post #6 of 62 (1881 views)
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Yes they do [In reply to] Can't Post

There is one scene in Lotr when the Rohirrim defend a smaller outer wall in front of Helm's Deep at night. And after throwing back the first assault one of them says something like 'at least we have taught them not to carry torches'


50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 28, 6:34pm

Post #7 of 62 (1880 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Among other examples there is this, just before Frodo and Sam get captured:


Quote
They did not have to wait long. The orcs were going at a great pace. Those in the foremost files bore torches. On they came, red flames in the dark, swiftly growing. Now Sam too bowed his head, hoping that it would hide his face when the torches reached them; and he set their shields before their knees to hide their feet.


'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 28, 7:13pm

Post #8 of 62 (1862 views)
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Um... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Are they nocturnal or do they just have a sun allergy?


...kinda both!

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Junesong
Rohan


Sep 28, 7:15pm

Post #9 of 62 (1857 views)
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Both [In reply to] Can't Post

The books describe orcs as being "night eyed" and also describes them bearing torches so, I guess both.

"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 28, 8:52pm

Post #10 of 62 (1827 views)
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Fight scene [In reply to] Can't Post

https://twitter.com/...eBrwcahsKWg&s=19

As others have said, Helm's Deep vibes.

But the fight scene... Wow. If that is their approach to fight action sequences I really cannot wait. It is so raw and real. This is why Legolas didn't work in The Hobbit. Stunning stunt performances.

I think Ismael mentioned at ComicCon that Arondir's fight style is rooted in his Capoeira skills. It shows.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 28, 9:00pm)


Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell


Sep 28, 9:08pm

Post #11 of 62 (1817 views)
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Nice fight sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

 


50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings


TFP
Rivendell


Sep 28, 9:21pm

Post #12 of 62 (1807 views)
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torches [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There is one scene in Lotr when the Rohirrim defend a smaller outer wall in front of Helm's Deep at night. And after throwing back the first assault one of them says something like 'at least we have taught them not to carry torches'


for full realism I can't help that an Orcish equivalent of Sun Tzu ought to have handed this lesson down rather earlier than T.A. 3019. though I suppose in this particular instance it's stressed in the books that saruman's uruks aren't bothered by the sun, so I suppose maybe can't see in the dark so well.


(This post was edited by TFP on Sep 28, 9:22pm)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Sep 29, 12:04am

Post #13 of 62 (1757 views)
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Hope to see a good portrayal of the Men of Westerness [In reply to] Can't Post

I expect the Numenoreans to be totally different than their descendants in Rotk. More close to the Rohirrim in terms of bravery and great fighting skills.


Bladerunner
Gondor


Sep 30, 12:50am

Post #14 of 62 (1513 views)
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Nori as Pippin?... [In reply to] Can't Post

In an earlier thread, I previously commented on how Nori's personality appears to be similar to, or mimicking, Pippin's personality and mannerisms from the LoTR films.

While recently watching "The Two Towers" I caught the scene shown in the following image that captures this similarity in both their facial expressions and their screams.

I think this is very deliberate and not merely coincidental.

Nori grabbed by the Stranger (ROP Episode 2)


Pippin about to be stomped by a Rohirrim horse (LOTR:TTT)


Ataahua
Forum Admin


Sep 30, 4:50am

Post #15 of 62 (1481 views)
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OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG **spoilers** [In reply to] Can't Post

That ending was AWESOME! At some point I'll look around to see if any volcanologists are chiming in about the mechanics of it but for this moment I don't care about realism - what an ending! The FX, the deep bone-shaking sounds - so beyond cool!

The fight scenes were excellent too, especially Galadriel dodging spears while on horseback. But my highlight of the episode (other than Orodruin going boom) was Galadriel and Adar getting face to face - so much anger and regret and pain beneath the surface of both of them. Breath-taking stuff.

Question: how well does elf-skin stand up against a pyroclastic flow?

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo

My LOTR fan-fiction


jlj93byu
Rivendell


Sep 30, 5:00am

Post #16 of 62 (1477 views)
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A Common Prediction Comes to Pass....but goodness.... [In reply to] Can't Post

So every possible viewer of man figured out immediately that Adar had given the actual key to Waldreg and Adar himself was a distraction, but all the wisdom and knowledge gathered in the village couldn't figure that out? At no point did they think to actually check what was wrapped in that cloth? That was so frustrating... oh my goodness that was so frustrating. You seek such an important artifact and don't actually verify that you do in fact have it in your possession when you just assume you do?

As for the major prediction, I was one who felt confident that item was a key that would be used to unleash Mount Doom, as many did as well. I don't mind predictable, honestly, and get more annoyed when writers try to surprise people just for the sake of saying "see, we can surprise you!"

And also, it seems they hinted again at a potential...something...between Halbrand and Galadriel, and so help me if they feign some romance between those two, that may be enough to completely turn me off to the show. That's not just taking some artistic license, that's outright 100% directly contradicting pretty solid canon to such a degree that it would show there's no respect for that canon to begin with. So here's hoping they do not go that route, please don't go that route.


(This post was edited by jlj93byu on Sep 30, 5:03am)


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Sep 30, 5:26am

Post #17 of 62 (1458 views)
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Totally agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

The eruption of Orodruin was awesome and chilling! The fight scenes much better and realistic than expected.Despite the battle scenes,there are actually many quiet scenes(especially Isildur and Elentil) that foreshadow who the main leaders of net seasons will be. Maybe the best episode yet!

"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"


Bladerunner
Gondor


Sep 30, 6:21am

Post #18 of 62 (1430 views)
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I agree regarding the Galadriel and Halbrand shenanigans... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and for the first time, I'm begining to believe that Halbrand is Sauron, which would make this budding "romance" doubly stupid.

The writers once again threw the word "bind" into the conversation between Galadriel and Halbrand.

Adar claimed to have killed Sauron, and then asks Halbrand "who are you?"
And Halbrand recognizes Adar and wants vengeance for something Adar did to him.
And Adar doesn't seem to much care for Sauron.
It sounds like Sauron has taken a guise that Adar does not recognize.
Perhaps Sauron was seeking to repent and then Adar "killed" him for it, or some such nonsense.

It is telling that the townspeople didn't recognize Halbrand as an existing King that abdicated or that was reluctant to govern, but rather assumed he was the "King that was promised" which is a very different thing altogether.

Also, there was a scene where Halbrand was sitting next to Galadriel and staring into space with a look that was almost malevolent.

I had had my doubts about Halbrand being Sauron but now those doubts are fading.

I hope that he is not Sauron and that there isn't a romance between him and Galadriel before he ends up returning to the dark side.

This episode was another disjointed mess.

(This post was edited by Bladerunner on Sep 30, 6:26am)


Bladerunner
Gondor


Sep 30, 7:24am

Post #19 of 62 (1385 views)
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Bind... [In reply to] Can't Post

So in Episode 2 Galadriel urges Halbrand to "Bind yourself to me" when they are on the raft, and he does not respond at all, either verbally or physically.

That word is loaded with meaning so although on the surface it was meant to just suggest that they just link up for safety, I thought there was a hint of an underlying intention foreshadowing that a deeper bond would be forming between the two characters.

Now in Episode 6, Halbrand uses the same word in the context of his feelings toward fighting alongside Galadriel:

"I never believed I could be, until today. Fighting at your side I felt it. If I could just hold on to that feeling. Keep it with me always. Bind it to my very being."


That is some mighty deep feelings after fighting Ione relatively minor skirmish.

I think in both instances that specific term is used intentionally to imply a bond forming between the two.

I also think that eventually this will be a good and evil type binding that will serve as some kind of dramatic twist for this supposed relationship. Whether Halbrand turns out to be the King of the Oath-breakers, the Witch-King, Sauron himself, or none of the above, I think this plot device would be an awful disappointment on all levels.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 30, 8:03am

Post #20 of 62 (1376 views)
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Pretty amazing [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty amazing television.


Likes

The direction was superb.

The fight scenes were so grounded and brutal without being gory. Everything TH lacked. Arondir's Capoeira puts Legolas to shame

Loved how they made it dark without going for shock effects. It was heartbreaking to see the Southlanders die or their shock when they realize they killed their own.

Adar is fantastically acted.

Galadriel had some great stuff in this one and I like how she is portrayed as caught between light and darkness.

I was so afraid for Bronwyn... This really had me on edge and really moved me. She is also fantastically acted. Bronwyn and Arondir are a great couple for this show. Nobody need Galbrand.

The music!

I still.dont think there actually will be something romantic between Halbrand and Galadriel. But there is a deep bond, coming from the demons that hunt them both. They see something in each other that others don't or that they have to explain to others and can't. If it stays like this, I have no issue with that relationship. But it shouldn't be romantic.

Mt. Doom was perfect.



Unsure about

I am more convinced then ever that the leaks must be wrong about Halbrand. But if he turns out to be him I less and less understand how they will explain it. For me the Stranger is a much more likely candidate now... Sauron returning after his form was indeed killed by Adar. The other possibility is still that Annatar is his new form after being "killed" and he is already in Eregion. But the Stranger being Sauron reincarnated would explain the Mystics. Members of a Sauron/Morgoth cult that want to help their master back to power. Halbrand would have made sense if they had gone with the repentence stuff. But they haven't... Sauron was massacring Orcs to gain more power and use the Unseen World for healing Middle-earth and making it "perfect". This sounded very Morgothian to me. He was only stopped by Adar (Adar has no reason to lie here). Why would Sauron after that come back in human form (who also is an heir to a throne) and then flee that heritage? The only thing that pointed towards Halbrand was the way he reacted towards Adar. Though he freaks out when Adar speaks about a child.


Dislikes

No one looking at the hilt earlier. Come on.

People looking at each other during battle before continuing to fight ;-)

Not a dislike, yet, but as I mentioned above, a lot will depend on the identities of the Stranger and Halbrand and Sauron. Some of the scenes in this episode that I really liked would lose a lot of their value if they mess up the Sauron reveal.

Distances should matter at least a bit more. They tried to give a sense of distance with the map and another day passing... But yeah, it could be a little more.






1x01 - 8/10
1x02 - 7/10
1x03 - 8.5/10
1x04 - 9/10
1x05 - 6.5/10
1x06 - 9.5/10



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 30, 8:08am)


UtumnoSkirmish
The Shire


Sep 30, 9:13am

Post #21 of 62 (1340 views)
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Epic (minor spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

9.5/10

This felt very much like the second half of a movie. My few complaints melt away as the true nature of this tale starts to emerge.

These orcs are no stormtroopers. They are worthy, difficult opponents. And so cruel.

The scene between Galadriel and Adar demonstrates that the writers have read their Morgoth's Ring. They are not shying away from engaging in the deeper questions.

I feel like I see what they are doing re Sauron and it is intriguing. A series elevating episode.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 30, 9:40am

Post #22 of 62 (1314 views)
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Had to watch it again [In reply to] Can't Post

What is your idea of what they will do with Sauron and his intentions, UtumnoS?

And I feel a bit embarassed about what I wrote above regarding H=S.
It comes across a bit delusional, as the hints are simply too strong and I do not even think they want us to be surprised. At least not by his identity but about his plans.

If H=S I could see he actually does think he can build a "perfect Middle-earth". With erverything in order. Perfected, not the "chaos" of nature etc. That would fit what Adar says about Sauron and what might go together with H in that role. In that scenario, he will surely try to get Galadriel on his side and she eventually refuses to follow "the reflection", the deceiving light.
Still see a ton of problems with this, - but re-watching that (perfect) Adar/Galadriel conversation again really opened up some interesting ways they might play Sauron.
Big question: how is he then able to seduce the other Elves? Or will they circumvent the - also in Tolkien - a bit mysterious way Annatar was able to trick them in the first place by making him seem like a redeemed Maia, obe who now wants to heal Middle.earth and stop the Elves from dwindling and leaving? This might actually be better to adapt than simply having a strange "messenger of the Valar" which should raise just as much eyebrows.Another question: what is going on with the sickness of the tree in Lindon if it isn't directly connected to Sauron? This would then mean that the tree and the Mithril legend really just was a way to explain the fading of the Elves.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



TFP
Rivendell


Sep 30, 9:54am

Post #23 of 62 (1307 views)
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Some of these ratings look a bit generous to me, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

Overall I liked it, certainly. Not every last aspect of it, but the good very easily outweighed the bad.

I had mixed feelings about the eruption of MD... it was a powerful, iconic, moment, with quality visual and audio effects [to me looked to be the equal of any Marvel movie or other cutting edge cinematic effort]... but... I can't say I ever particularly liked the storyline around 'key' [surely there would have been other ways to break the dam?] and, though certainly no geologist, I did find myself pausing for thought at the idea of such a violent explosion being triggered in this way.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 30, 10:10am

Post #24 of 62 (1291 views)
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Surely [In reply to] Can't Post

I am sure the adrenaline rush influenced my rating.

But I was really surprised how on edge I was and I really feared for some of the characters (especially Bronwyn but also Isildur's friends) and that it really struck a chord how they portrayed the Southlanders die. It was more than background noise for heros to fight in the foreground. The real pain, loss and death of real people was much more the focus than is often the case in (fantasy) battle scenes. I loved that.

Also, this episode showed how they can interpret stuff their way while depicting events one expects from the lore to happen. In this case the establishment of Mordor.

But yes, these ratings all are first feelings and will need a second look after a longer time.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



TFP
Rivendell


Sep 30, 10:46am

Post #25 of 62 (1264 views)
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How could Sauron do it? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... how is he then able to seduce the other Elves? Or will they circumvent the - also in Tolkien - a bit mysterious way Annatar was able to trick them in the first place by making him seem like a redeemed Maia, obe who now wants to heal Middle.earth and stop the Elves from dwindling and leaving? This might actually be better to adapt than simply having a strange "messenger of the Valar" which should raise just as much eyebrows...


Yeah, I daresay you have the right of it about stopping the elves dwindling etc.. I suppose, it's a bit Star Wars-y [Palpatine is still using the whole '...only I can help you save Padmé...' shtick to very good effect after he's revealed himself to be a Sith], but the obvious answer probably is all this business about the mithril.

e.g. maybe the dwarves won't give Celebrimbor the amount he needs/maybe Celebrimbor doesn't know what to do with the amount he gets/whatever, so it's looking like all will be lost, but Sauron [very plausibly given his background as a Maiar of Aulë] offers to help out... and maybe he was the one who either caused - or else started the misinformation about - the need for the mithril solution anyway... the elves are naturally cautious about working with him but given the existential threat they face decide to go with it... maybe he's able to offer them a quick 'proof of concept' of what he can do, e.g. does some limited reparations to the tree using only a speck of mithril, explains that using the mithril to make rings will work because [etc]...

so Sauron definitely wins over Celebrimbor, maybe initially Gil-Galad too, but not ever Galadriel [once his mask slips] and probably not ever Elrond either?


(This post was edited by TFP on Sep 30, 10:54am)

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