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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: TV Discussion: The Rings of Power:
Galadriel and Halbrand prediction: Its' going to happen
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Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell


Sep 25, 5:51pm

Post #26 of 54 (449 views)
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What is being presented to us [In reply to] Can't Post

Laying aside our knowledge of the books, just for a moment, the Galadriel and Halbrand subplot is being presented as a Love Story.



It reminds me a bit of Hepburn and Bogart in The African Queen.



But back to both series and books:

Now whether it is genuine at this point and he is just what he says he is,a king of men, trying to go straight more or less, or an elaborate fake and he is a devious Sauron I do not know.

But there is another possibility. He is both. A Sauron trying to rehabilitate. Such chance I believe he was offered in the book and he simply slipped away.

And as we know, destroy one dark lord and another will rise in his place (Adar).

Just thinking out loud here.


50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 25, 10:47pm

Post #27 of 54 (408 views)
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But why... [In reply to] Can't Post

...does man on raft + female elf on raft = love story? So far their story has elements of mystery, escape, and differing perspectives and motives. Nothing to do with love at all unless you want to see it there.If you're right and that's the way they're going, it's about the corniest plotline imaginable.

I don't think Halbrand is Sauron. I may be wrong, but if he is Sauron, repentant of otherwise, remember he isn't a man - human - at all. He's a Maia, like Gandalf and the other Istari, the Balrogs and others. It makes the conventional love story idea even less likely.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell


Sep 25, 11:45pm

Post #28 of 54 (397 views)
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Time will tell [In reply to] Can't Post

But I don't see anything corny in this unusual pairing. To me that would be something like The Stranger and Nori having a musical number.

Wink


50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings


skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan

Sep 25, 11:53pm

Post #29 of 54 (397 views)
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Prediction [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel is already married. Her daughter is already an adult. Both she and Celeborn will be introduced in Season 2 and recontextualize our expectations of season 1 Galadriel.

It's the only real way to build up to the Celebrían tragedy, which this show will inevitably cover now that we've heard Durin's oath. We have a Chekov's gun now. Of course, Celebrían being waylaid by orcs is a third age story but they're obviously depicting the third age Khazad-dûm storyline as occurring in the second age as well, whether the fall of the kingdom happens in season 1 or season 5.

There's really nothing that characterizes the tension between Galadriel and Halbrand as romantic or sexual. I believe it will amount to moral or philosophical tension, as between Gandalf and Denethor, but that the show runners are expecting viewers to ship this couple. A red herring from the ultimate destiny of these two very different characters.


Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell


Sep 26, 1:24am

Post #30 of 54 (383 views)
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I learned a new word [In reply to] Can't Post

[ ship ] verb. to take an interest in or hope for a romantic relationship between (fictional characters or famous people), whether or not the romance actually exists

Yeah, that's me. Laugh


50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 26, 4:28am

Post #31 of 54 (369 views)
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Credit [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If you're right and that's the way they're going, it's about the corniest plotline imaginable. I don't think Halbrand is Sauron.


The web says he is all but confirmed to be Sauron. You might be giving the writing too much credit.


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 26, 4:31am

Post #32 of 54 (367 views)
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Celeborn Lives? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Galadriel is already married. Her daughter is already an adult. Both she and Celeborn will be introduced in Season 2


The web says that Celeborn is dead. I'm very interested in finding out whether that is horse hockey or not.


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Sep 26, 4:50am

Post #33 of 54 (363 views)
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"The web" says a lot of things [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, there are plenty of people convinced that Halbrand is Sauron, but you can find people convinced of a multitude of fan theories. The fact that people are saying it's "all but confirmed" means nothing in and of itself, unless they have some special insight into the production.


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 26, 5:19am

Post #34 of 54 (356 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yes, there are plenty of people convinced that Halbrand is Sauron, but you can find people convinced of a multitude of fan theories. The fact that people are saying it's "all but confirmed" means nothing in and of itself, unless they have some special insight into the production.


I, and probably everyone, agree that we can't, or shouldn't, believe everything we read or hear reported, but that includes the denials, eh? ;)


TFP
Rivendell


Sep 26, 9:18am

Post #35 of 54 (336 views)
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Love Story [In reply to] Can't Post

I probably see this one as something more akin to the 'romance' in 'Lost in Translation', two lost souls who definitely connect but who don't quite get it on for a range of reasons including an age gap and, in this instance, the male character possibly being a shapeshifting fallen angel with designs on world domination and a range of bad habits not limited to referring to himself in the third person as 'Gorthaur The Cruel' when he thinks no-one is listening.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Sep 26, 4:40pm

Post #36 of 54 (269 views)
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That made me laugh out loud! :-D // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I probably see this one as something more akin to the 'romance' in 'Lost in Translation', two lost souls who definitely connect but who don't quite get it on for a range of reasons including an age gap and, in this instance, the male character possibly being a shapeshifting fallen angel with designs on world domination and a range of bad habits not limited to referring to himself in the third person as 'Gorthaur The Cruel' when he thinks no-one is listening.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell


Sep 26, 5:29pm

Post #37 of 54 (263 views)
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"Honey, have you seen my mace?' [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh


50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings


Yistaan
The Shire

Sep 27, 5:27pm

Post #38 of 54 (196 views)
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Galadriel and Halbrand, or anyone else for that matter [In reply to] Can't Post

For someone who's repeatedly described as the most beautiful woman in Middle-Earth, no one in this show seems to notice. This was bypassed in LOTR because Galadriel was introduced as being married and the Fellowship are all honorable people, but in Rings of Power it seems Celeborn isn't around yet and so it sticks out.

Second Age Middle-Earth human men, Halbrand included, are shown as following more modern dating protocols where the man goes the extra mile not to show romantic interest unless the woman does. This is just and necessary in our society but I do think it's a bit much to retroactively impose it onto a society that existed thousands of years ago and where a major point is made that they have morally degenerated.

So I don't think Halbrand and Galadriel will happen at all. If Galadriel does get any hot scenes the showrunners are probably waiting for Celeborn.

And if Halbrand is Sauron, everything we know about Maiar (Melian for example) means that if Sauron gets down and dirty with Galadriel (or anyone else for that matter), he'll be stuck in that form forever without shapeshifting powers.


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 27, 6:04pm

Post #39 of 54 (184 views)
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Can't Resist [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Second Age Middle-Earth human men, Halbrand included, are shown as following more modern dating protocols where the man goes the extra mile not to show romantic interest unless the woman does...


Interesting point of view, if a little unintentionally sexist. Let's not forget the vice versa of all things and persons being equal.


In Reply To
it seems Celeborn isn't around yet and so it sticks out.


The complaints about "wokism" accuse it of saying men are bad, expending the gender to elevate women. They are bad husbands, bad fathers, bad politics (I would actually agree with the politics part, favoring rule-by-estrogen over rule-by-testosterone), and villains. Young men throw stones to sink paper ships and bully young women. Male heroes are deconstructed in favor of women with unearned power. Women can do anything and do it better without men. Representations of stupid, absent or dead husbands and fathers are a common source of complaint. So should we be surprised that the writers have freed Galadriel of Celeborn to pass the Bectdel test? Galadriel falling for Halbrand as Sauron in disguise neatly fits into this narrative. I'll be pleasantly surprised (shocked? expectations subverted?) if the writers don't go there. What would Galadriel think as a living, independent being, freed from the pages of the fiction and the writers pulling her strings, about how Celeborn has been taken from her? I enjoying thinking of her Purple Rose of Cairo wrath against them.


In Reply To
...I do think it's a bit much to retroactively impose it onto a society that existed thousands of years ago and where a major point is made that they have morally degenerated.


It's part of "what the world looks like today," as the quote from the Executive Producer says.


In Reply To
So I don't think Halbrand and Galadriel will happen at all. If Galadriel does get any hot scenes the showrunners are probably waiting for Celeborn.


Not to worry. As mentioned, the web says Celeborn is dead anyway.


(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Sep 27, 6:13pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan

Sep 27, 7:44pm

Post #40 of 54 (171 views)
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Sigh [In reply to] Can't Post

None of this reflects anything that is in the show. Which isn't surprising, since you haven't seen it.


Junesong
Rohan


Sep 27, 8:34pm

Post #41 of 54 (156 views)
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Yikes [In reply to] Can't Post

"The complaints about "wokism" accuse it of saying men are bad, expending the gender to elevate women. They are bad husbands, bad fathers, bad politics (I would actually agree with the politics part, favoring rule-by-estrogen over rule-by-testosterone), and villains. Young men throw stones to sink paper ships and bully young women. Male heroes are deconstructed in favor of women with unearned power. Women can do anything and do it better without men. Representations of stupid, absent or dead husbands and fathers are a common source of complaint. So should we be surprised that the writers have freed Galadriel of Celeborn to pass the Bectdel test? Galadriel falling for Halbrand as Sauron in disguise neatly fits into this narrative. I'll be pleasantly surprised (shocked? expectations subverted?) if the writers don't go there. What would Galadriel think as a living, independent being, freed from the pages of the fiction and the writers pulling her strings, about how Celeborn has been taken from her? I enjoying thinking of her Purple Rose of Cairo wrath against them."

I wish I could just pause the world and teach a class on this paragraph. I wish I had hours to go line by line and really dissect these ideas. The whole thing is amazing. Its a very concise, succinct summary of an ideology both condescending and ludicrous. It's a masterclass in willful misunderstanding. It's like someone turned the word "obtuse" into a piece of art and hung it in a museum.

I'm not blaming or criticizing you DCH, so forgive my tone of incredulity, it's not aimed at you - I know you're just listing the complaints against "wokism", I'm actually applauding you. I think it's a very well articulated summary. But wow - I honestly couldn't disagree more with those "complaints".

Also - in regards to, "Let's not forget the vice versa of all things and persons being equal."

This is another idea that I'd consider unhelpful at best and dangerous at worst. Not everything can be vice versa'd. We don't have to look at "both sides" to everything. Not all opinions are equal. Not all ideas are equal. Not everything has to be balanced or consistent or fair. In fact, almost nothing is. People are not equal. Equality, I would argue, is outside our grasp. Equity MAYBE - if we're lucky. Equal treatment under the law - MAYBE, if we're lucky. But this insistence that everything needs to be equal and fair and that there's two legitimate sides to everything is just not true. Not sure where the idea came from but it's a bad one.




"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."


Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell


Sep 27, 8:52pm

Post #42 of 54 (147 views)
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Push-and-pull [In reply to] Can't Post



"Bind yourself to me!"

Charlie Vickers had this to say in an early interview:

“When they first meet, it’s kind of a stand-offish situation they find themselves in. What they are to each other in that moment is a means of survival,” Vickers said. “Hal is at a point where he’s leaving his past behind, and what happens between him and Galadriel is interesting as the show unfolds. Without saying too much, I think she starts to illuminate things in his past and make him question his past and his future. It’s kind of like a push-and-pull dynamic between them.”

I do agree it has been interesting!


50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 27, 9:20pm

Post #43 of 54 (142 views)
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Signup [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd sign up to your class. The whole discussion fascinates me, apparently. I enjoy being concise, packing in as much content as I can in the fewest words, sometimes to the detriment of a fuller argument, but don't like to take a whole lot of time out of real life to do it or make people read an essay, nor do I expect they would take the time. So thanks, I guess?


In Reply To
Also - in regards to, "Let's not forget the vice versa of all things and persons being equal."
This is another idea that I'd consider unhelpful at best and dangerous at worst. Not everything can be vice versa'd. We don't have to look at "both sides" to everything. Not all opinions are equal. Not all ideas are equal. Not everything has to be balanced or consistent or fair. In fact, almost nothing is. People are not equal. Equality, I would argue, is outside our grasp. Equity MAYBE - if we're lucky. Equal treatment under the law - MAYBE, if we're lucky. But this insistence that everything needs to be equal and fair and that there's two legitimate sides to everything is just not true. Not sure where the idea came from but it's a bad one.


I mostly agree. That line was written with some amount of sarcasm.


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 27, 9:27pm

Post #44 of 54 (139 views)
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Dan Cook [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
None of this reflects anything that is in the show. Which isn't surprising, since you haven't seen it.


Alluding to Dan Cook's quote, it's not over yet. This very topic is dedicated to one rather raw question. And Celeborn's fate is not answered in show-canon yet. I look forward to the results of both, for they will contribute to my future decision of whether to watch, or just stick with House of the Dragon for my fantasy fix.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 27, 9:43pm

Post #45 of 54 (136 views)
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Dismissing the Web [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not to worry. As mentioned, the web says Celeborn is dead anyway.


The Web knows not of which it speaks.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 27, 10:14pm

Post #46 of 54 (127 views)
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Who Knows [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Not to worry. As mentioned, the web says Celeborn is dead anyway.


The Web knows not of which it speaks.


I posit that you know this for a fact as much as you would say I do.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 27, 10:24pm

Post #47 of 54 (127 views)
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Not a Fact [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm treating it as a rumor or possibly a red herring.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Sep 28, 2:17am

Post #48 of 54 (104 views)
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Huh? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Male heroes are deconstructed in favor of women with unearned power. Women can do anything and do it better without men. Representations of stupid, absent or dead husbands and fathers are a common source of complaint. So should we be surprised that the writers have freed Galadriel of Celeborn to pass the Bectdel test? Galadriel falling for Halbrand as Sauron in disguise neatly fits into this narrative.


How would Galadriel being so clueless that she falls for the "man" she's spent centuries hunting fit the purported narrative that women make for better / more competent heroes than men?


(This post was edited by Eldy on Sep 28, 2:20am)


DGHCaretaker
Lorien

Sep 28, 2:46am

Post #49 of 54 (99 views)
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Self-Stated [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Male heroes are deconstructed in favor of women with unearned power. Women can do anything and do it better without men. Representations of stupid, absent or dead husbands and fathers are a common source of complaint. So should we be surprised that the writers have freed Galadriel of Celeborn to pass the Bectdel test? Galadriel falling for Halbrand as Sauron in disguise neatly fits into this narrative.


How would Galadriel being so clueless that she falls for the "man" she's spent centuries hunting fit the purported narrative that women make for better / more competent heroes than men?


It really looks like you answered your own question. So much so I wonder why you need to ask. Ok. Besides the point, but as a common story device, bring the heroic character or group to the lowest possible point where all seems lost before triumphantly defeating the villain at the end against all possible odds. To the point, loving a man is that lowest point which will only bring you grief and despair.


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Sep 28, 3:42am

Post #50 of 54 (94 views)
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Don't see it [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a curious reading of the show. You mentioned the trope that "[w]omen can do anything and do it better without men," whereas ROP has explicitly shown us that Galadriel is more effective when she listens to Halbrand—a man—and does as he suggests. Moreover, even if ROP does progress in the way you describe, I don't think it would prove much about cultural agendas or whatever unless it's reflected throughout the show. So far, I'm not seeing evidence of that. Bronwyn, who has an unambiguously romantic relationship with Arondir, is strengthened and heartened by his presence. Disa seems quite happy with her lot in life. One could argue her relationship with Durin leans into stereotypes of smart women and bumbling men (though Durin showed his sly side in episode 5), but it's not depicting this as bad for women. Kemen, meanwhile, disregards his father's advice and does something tremendously stupid in the hopes that it will please the girl he's crushing on. I suppose this could be taken out of context and used as "evidence" that ROP hates men, but it's hard to square with the idea that women are smarter and men should listen to them, since Kemen would have been better served listening to his father. Meanwhile, the most politically powerful woman in the show, Míriel, has no onscreen female advisors, yet is shown listening to and valuing the advice of two men, Pharazôn and Elendil, whose words she quite reasonably gives more weight to than Galadriel's.


(This post was edited by Eldy on Sep 28, 3:45am)

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