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**SPOILERS** RoP Episode 5 full discussion
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin


Sep 23, 8:10am

Post #1 of 112 (1692 views)
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**SPOILERS** RoP Episode 5 full discussion Can't Post

Can't believe nobody else has posted yet - I slept badly, woke early and had time to watch episode 5 (which is a longish one) before any work starts.

No answers to any of the conundrums, and more conundrums raised - I know rumours before the show suggested that the guy in white is Sauron, and it kinds of makes sense, but what was going on there with the Stranger's landing site? It got a bit mystical.

- loved Poppy's song, it was beautiful with nice call-backs to LOTR
- could they be making Halbrand any more Aragorny? (Not complaining).
- Galadriel fighting the soliders was great, I liked the way it showed her coming alive a bit and clearly enjoying herself
- did we need the ships burning sequence except for a random way to get Isildur on board?
- Dúrin rocks

Random thought: did Elros have normal human ears? Or did he have Elven ears? Which gene is dominant when you're a half-Elven? How long does it take for the gene to die out so that Pharazon and Míriel have normal human ears?

The big question: what on earth was all that babble about mithril and the Silmarils and WHY? I think it adds an element of jeopardy that's not needed. We know the Elves don't leave Middle-earth until the end of the Third Age. It makes no logical sense whether you're a fan or not, IMHO. Can't mithril just be a really valuable, rare precious element that the Elves, who like nice things, covet and Celebrimbor would like to make stuff with?

Storm clouds

(This post was edited by Eledhwen on Sep 23, 8:11am)


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 23, 8:17am

Post #2 of 112 (1611 views)
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Weakest so far but still promising. [In reply to] Can't Post

Liked

- Isildur shapes up to be a great character
- Wandering Days was a beautiful scene
- I really start to like Halbrand... And I am convinced after all my worries that they won't do anything stupid. He isn't Sauron.
- liked the darker blood oath scene. One can show cruelty and violence without innards flying around. Well directed.
- Galadriel's sword training turned out to be a really good scene
- the score is amazing


Unsure about

- the invented Mithril/Silmaril story... Though it kind of makes sense that there would be legends among the Elves of what happened to the lost Silmaril. Connecting the Elves so closely to the mining of the ore will annoy many people... It could work out, though, if Annatar is already at work in Eregion which seems more and more likely. This could easily go into the Dislike corner, though.
- the Stranger... I just hope this will be worth all the build-up


Disliked

- Kemen. Before the ship explosion, it would have needed more explaining that he belongs to a bigger crowd of people set to prevent the mission to start. This way it seemed like a stupid thing he does to impress Earien.
- how did they find out the hilt is a key?!
- too much build-up and at the same time it felt rushed. Pace was a bit uneven... Definitely an episode that will work better once it can be watched directly in front of the next one.



1x01 - 8/10
1x02 - 7/10
1x03 - 8.5/10
1x04 - 9/10
1x05 - 6.5/10



Predictions based on the Episode 6 teaser:

- Mt. Doom will errupt next episode... It seems Arondir and the remaining Southlanders can defend the tower for a while and then flee... As they are back in the village when the Numenoreans arrive (which hopefully will take longer than one day...)
- it seems Adar will be the one to use the key?! He is the only one right now who might know about it and get the hilt
- doesn't look like the Balrog will feature in the Mordor storyline



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Arannir
Valinor


Sep 23, 8:23am

Post #3 of 112 (1608 views)
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To three of your points... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Halbrand being Aragorny:

I hope they play it this way to make him the Anti-Aragorn later when he either becomes a Nazguls or the King of the Undead. That could be powerful.


... The ship burning:

This was definitely something that either needed more set-up in Kemen's storyline or should have been smaller (we really didn't need an explosion, a fire would have been more than enough).


... The Mithril/Silmaril stuff:

This could really become a major issue for me as well. As I said above, it could work if it is one of the things Annatar is the one responsible for. A lot here would make more sense if Celebrimbor is already working with him. If not, this could end up as a really big blunder.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Eledhwen
Forum Admin


Sep 23, 8:52am

Post #4 of 112 (1591 views)
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I feel like ... [In reply to] Can't Post

we'd have seen a hint of Annatar by now if he was already working with Celebrimbor. After all they have five seasons planned, so we can't expect all the answers in season one. OTOH I'll be annoyed if they forget the rings in favour of faffing around with mithrils and Silmarils.

Storm clouds


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 23, 8:53am

Post #5 of 112 (1592 views)
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Sorry for going on about Mithril... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but I just thought about that Elrond might very well be right.

That the Song of Hithaeglir is apocryphal.

IF Annatar turns out to be behind the poisoning of the tree, the Mithril story and the pressure to finish the forge by spring this could all come together as a good deceiver story.

He would have manipulated Celebrimbor and Gil-galad to send away the one who is still hunting for him. He also would have laid the foundations to drive Elves and Dwarves apart. And he would have all in place to start ring forging.

All by exploiting the Elves desire to preserve (which the Three will eventually do) and probably by playing Celebrimbor's Feanoric aspirations.

If they play it this way, the Mithril plot might work out quite well.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Sep 23, 8:55am)


Ataahua
Forum Admin


Sep 23, 9:46am

Post #6 of 112 (1553 views)
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'Babble' is the perfect description. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The big question: what on earth was all that babble about mithril and the Silmarils and WHY? I think it adds an element of jeopardy that's not needed. We know the Elves don't leave Middle-earth until the end of the Third Age. It makes no logical sense whether you're a fan or not, IMHO. Can't mithril just be a really valuable, rare precious element that the Elves, who like nice things, covet and Celebrimbor would like to make stuff with?


None of that explanation made sense. And I can't see how this bit of mystical woo-woo aids the story. It's the first time I've rolled my eyes while watching the show.

I will say, though, that the Durin/Elrond relationship is an actual gift that keeps on giving - love these two, and how they play off each other!

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo

My LOTR fan-fiction


Ataahua
Forum Admin


Sep 23, 9:48am

Post #7 of 112 (1551 views)
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Adar [In reply to] Can't Post

creeped me out. He seemed quieter and more threatening in this episode than when he was talking to Arondir. The actor playing him is doing a remarkable job.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo

My LOTR fan-fiction


Archestratie
Lorien


Sep 23, 9:56am

Post #8 of 112 (1541 views)
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Uh... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been working so hard this week, I forgot it was Friday. Oops! Anyway, thanks for making the thread. I can't wait to watch the episode tonight. Not reading any other posts until I do! :)

My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf

The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.


Ataahua
Forum Admin


Sep 23, 10:23am

Post #9 of 112 (1525 views)
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Theory: [In reply to] Can't Post

The Elves' ultimate inability to get mithril or use it in the way Gil-galad theorises is what drives Celebrimbor to make the Three Rings, in an effort to strengthen their kind and hold off the fading.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo

My LOTR fan-fiction


TFP
Rivendell


Sep 23, 10:28am

Post #10 of 112 (1522 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...
1x01 - 8/10
1x02 - 7/10
1x03 - 8.5/10
1x04 - 9/10
1x05 - 6.5/10
...


i agree that this was the weakest episode yet, though not without its strong points.

I, ahem, cordially disliked what they done with mithril , there was just no need.

I personally couldn't stand the 'Galadriel kicking Numenorian posterior' scene, so unserious [why would they ever be sparring, unarmoured, with what looked like very sharp steel?].

I've never liked the hilt, it seems to me to get worse.

I agree that the boats sabotage scene was really poorly explained, I daresay they at some point took a decision to cut some fairly important scenes building up to it.


I for some reason quite liked the stranger scenes, with the wolves and so on.

I quite like Adar, too.


Eledhwen
Forum Admin


Sep 23, 10:36am

Post #11 of 112 (1514 views)
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I like the Harfoot-Stranger strand [In reply to] Can't Post

The Harfoots are engaging and the Stranger is mysterious - though I'm still leaning towards Gandalf.

I like Adar too. Every show needs a good villain and in the absence of actual Sauron so far he's filling that role nicely.

Storm clouds

(This post was edited by Eledhwen on Sep 23, 10:36am)


Eledhwen
Forum Admin


Sep 23, 10:38am

Post #12 of 112 (1512 views)
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Hmm that could definitely work [In reply to] Can't Post

Nenya is made of mithril after all (I just had to look up what 'adamant' is and apparently adamant is the stone, not the metal).

Storm clouds


Junesong
Lorien


Sep 23, 12:26pm

Post #13 of 112 (1445 views)
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Mithril [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the first and worst terrible choice I've seen these showrunners make. It's up there with Jackson's "Arwen's fate is tied to the ring" nonsense. It's raising stakes where stakes don't need raising. And it's timid writing - the showrunners are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

But I'm hopeful. I think they're just trying to provide motivation for the creation of the rings. I'd also guess that we'll see in the next few episodes a reveal that shows that Celebrimbor (and possibly Gil-Galad) are already being manipulated by Sauron and deceived.

It's a clear motivation for making the three rings for sure - to ward off the fading of the elves.

But the story about the tree and the Elven Lord and the Balrog was just SOOO stupid. (IMO)

Still, somehow, it was the best episode by far. The show keeps getting better.

"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."

(This post was edited by Junesong on Sep 23, 12:29pm)


TFP
Rivendell


Sep 23, 1:33pm

Post #14 of 112 (1395 views)
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Mithril [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is the first and worst terrible choice I've seen these showrunners make. It's up there with Jackson's "Arwen's fate is tied to the ring" nonsense. It's raising stakes where stakes don't need raising. And it's timid writing - the showrunners are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

But I'm hopeful. I think they're just trying to provide motivation for the creation of the rings. I'd also guess that we'll see in the next few episodes a reveal that shows that Celebrimbor (and possibly Gil-Galad) are already being manipulated by Sauron and deceived.

It's a clear motivation for making the three rings for sure - to ward off the fading of the elves.
....


I think I'd go further - I dislike the 'mithril objects as pseudo silmarils' so much that I hope that either Celebrimbor/Gil-Galad have themselves been deceived/are wrong about this, or that they're [possibly due to Sauron's influence] lying and just want it because it's shiny and you can make nice things out of it.


In Reply To
...the story about the tree and the Elven Lord and the Balrog was just SOOO stupid. (IMO)...


agreed, this is a very niche reference but it reminded me a little of the intentionally campy, low budget, 'this is how the world was made' prologue at the beginning of the late 70s 'watership down' film.


jlj93byu
Rivendell


Sep 23, 2:17pm

Post #15 of 112 (1365 views)
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My 2 Biggest Head Scratchers.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Two things I'm still trying to wrap my head around. First, Numenor, a great island nation...has no standing army and has to ask for volunteers, but even then, only has 5 ships equipped to send them on?

Second, Bronwyn goes from a rousing speech to inspire faith in defending the tower....to "never mind, time to give up and swear fealty" in a matter of what, a day?

Yeah, the whole Silmaril/Mithril connection totally came out of left field, but I'm more willing to see how that plays out...even though it definitely had me also scratching my head.

This was the first episode for me where the Harfoot storyline didn't seem to drag and was the most enjoyable Hartfoot segments so far. Really enjoyed Poppy's song and the beautiful NZ scenery. Made me grateful they said they'll be doing more filming in NZ for Season 2.

Also, doesn't Pharazon lead the armies in the book? I seem to recall Miriel not leaving Numenor, and was wondering why they'd change that in the show. Probably to basically get Miriel out of the way and show Pharazon scheming now that she's gone...but still, that could still be accomplished without that significant departure from canon.


(This post was edited by jlj93byu on Sep 23, 2:22pm)


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 23, 2:25pm

Post #16 of 112 (1354 views)
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Some potential explanations... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Numenor might simply not have been in need of a big army at that time. What would they dear other than the Corsairs mentioned in Episode 2?

... to the Mithril I spoke above. I also think it is a deception by Sauron... That could kind of make sense. But I also dear they have created needless issues and contradictions here.

... I am sure Pharazon will lead the Numenorean army (which I expect to be more militarized by then) once Sauron overruns Eregion and he is already King.

... Bronwyn I actually didn't mind... She seemed very shaken by so many leaving to pledge fietly to Adar.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



jlj93byu
Rivendell


Sep 23, 2:47pm

Post #17 of 112 (1339 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... Numenor might simply not have been in need of a big army at that time. What would they dear other than the Corsairs mentioned in Episode 2?

... to the Mithril I spoke above. I also think it is a deception by Sauron... That could kind of make sense. But I also dear they have created needless issues and contradictions here.

... I am sure Pharazon will lead the Numenorean army (which I expect to be more militarized by then) once Sauron overruns Eregion and he is already King.

... Bronwyn I actually didn't mind... She seemed very shaken by so many leaving to pledge fietly to Adar.


Great explanations. Despite my having questions like this, I'm always a glass is half full person and like to think of ways to answer my questions that make sense and don't detract from my enjoyment of a show. Asking questions is actually one way I engage with it and enjoy it.

Your mithril explanation is one I've actually thought of as well...I still think Sauron hasn't been seen on screen yet and is already in Eregion as Annatar, and could very well be responsible in some way for elements of that story thread...planting lies to generate fear, or perhaps laying the groundwork for justifying the creation of the rings.


(This post was edited by jlj93byu on Sep 23, 2:49pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 23, 3:22pm

Post #18 of 112 (1313 views)
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Speculations and Opinions [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Two things I'm still trying to wrap my head around. First, Numenor, a great island nation...has no standing army and has to ask for volunteers, but even then, only has 5 ships equipped to send them on?

Second, Bronwyn goes from a rousing speech to inspire faith in defending the tower....to "never mind, time to give up and swear fealty" in a matter of what, a day?

Yeah, the whole Silmaril/Mithril connection totally came out of left field, but I'm more willing to see how that plays out...even though it definitely had me also scratching my head.

This was the first episode for me where the Harfoot storyline didn't seem to drag and was the most enjoyable Hartfoot segments so far. Really enjoyed Poppy's song and the beautiful NZ scenery. Made me grateful they said they'll be doing more filming in NZ for Season 2.

Also, doesn't Pharazon lead the armies in the book? I seem to recall Miriel not leaving Numenor, and was wondering why they'd change that in the show. Probably to basically get Miriel out of the way and show Pharazon scheming now that she's gone...but still, that could still be accomplished without that significant departure from canon.


This is a very focused campaign that won't require a huge force from Númenor.

Agreed, Bronwyn is giving into despair far too easily.

I still hate the design of the Warg-hogs.

I think this first campaign only replaces the fleet sent to Middle-earth in S.A. 1700 by Tar-Minastir (or his aunt Tar-Tar-Telperiën). I predict that there will be a second campaign later that will be led by Ar-Pharazôn.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Bladerunner
Gondor


Sep 23, 3:47pm

Post #19 of 112 (1285 views)
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But this version of Galadriel believes they are going to confront Sauron... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is a very focused campaign that won't require a huge force from Númenor.


If so, then she is willfully leading them to slaughter...


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 23, 4:57pm

Post #20 of 112 (1243 views)
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Maybe. [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel doesn't have much say in the size of the Numenorean expedition. She is more of an advisor at this point.

On the other hand, these Orcs aren't expecting a disciplined force arriving to reinforce the Southland resistance. Adar seems to be a capable leader but we really haven't seen him in action.

I neglected to previously add how awful I found this absurd connection between the silmarili and mithril. And how would a lost silmaril become lodged inside a random tree in the Misty Mountains anyway? Ridiculous.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 23, 4:59pm)


Yistaan
The Shire

Sep 23, 5:04pm

Post #21 of 112 (1236 views)
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Halbrand [In reply to] Can't Post

If Halbrand is Sauron, we literally see scenes of Sauron angsting by himself, with no one around to fool, in this episode. If he really is Sauron, then we have to assume that he's contemplating returning to evil, hasn't made up his mind, and everything he's been telling Galadriel about being a "king" of evil Southlanders who did terrible things is a massive understatement, albeit technically true from a certain point of view.

So why was Sauron on a raft to nowhere? If he were sailing back to Valinor to repent and face judgement (he's had centuries to do so but maybe he takes a while to make up his mind), who were the other people on the raft with him?

And if Halbrand is Sauron, is Annatar just going to be shaven Charlie Vickers with elf ears? Because the audience will just burst into laughter.


Bladerunner
Gondor


Sep 23, 5:16pm

Post #22 of 112 (1227 views)
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But Galadriel doesn't know any of this yet... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and is just going off of Halbrand's word and assuming they will be confronting Sauron in the Southlands.

If she truly believed and anticipates this to be true, then ROP Series-version Galadriel should have done her best Gimli impersonation and said "This is no rabble of mindless orcs we will be facing. This is Sauron himself. We need the best of the best."

She is either not true to her series-character, not expecting to face Sauron, doesn't care, or has not thought that far ahead (which may also be consistent with her series-character).

Also - why is Miriel nor Elendil questioning her as to why no other Elves have skin in this game?

Also, also - with all the meticulous guild medallions required to do anything in Numenor, it's shocking that none seem to be required to serve in battle!

I have so many issues with this episode that I may just post them in stream of conscious as they pop in my head as opposed to trying to gather my thoughts first before posting.

(This post was edited by Bladerunner on Sep 23, 5:19pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Lorien

Sep 23, 5:44pm

Post #23 of 112 (1212 views)
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question [In reply to] Can't Post

What evidence is there that Annatar, a Maia and Emissary of the Valar (and not an elf), would have elf ears in the first place?


Eldy
Grey Havens


Sep 23, 6:30pm

Post #24 of 112 (1190 views)
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I just can't take seriously... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the idea that Gil-galad's and Celebrimbor's motivation, and by extension the driving force behind much of the plot, is that they believe the Elves' "immortal souls will dwindle into nothing" in less than a year unless they acquire vast quantities of mithril, which is believed to contain the light of a Silmaril, so that every Elf in Middle-earth can soak up Silmaril light like they're Siberian schoolchildren getting doses of UV light in winter. Maybe this would be bother me less if I wasn't already a Second Age fangirl, but it's just too ridiculous for me. I can't even focus enough to comment on the other plotlines when my mind is still reeling from the fact that Celebrimbor is building his forge so he can make mithril tanning beds. (Then again, not sleeping last night might also be playing a role.)


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 23, 7:03pm

Post #25 of 112 (1165 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Halbrand does way too much contemplating for the Dark Lord



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.


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