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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
"Concerning . . . The Hoard"

Elthir
Grey Havens


Aug 14, 7:24pm

Post #1 of 14 (2533 views)
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"Concerning . . . The Hoard" Can't Post

At another website, someone called Arvegil145 has posted:

__________

That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!

I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!

[I can't get the first link to work here -- Elthir]

(. . .) The transcript:

https://docs.google.com/...vS_UEYP72pA_E60/edit

__________

Wow!


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 14, 7:33pm)


oliphaunt
Rivendell


Aug 14, 8:27pm

Post #2 of 14 (2480 views)
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Wow! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


squire
Half-elven


Aug 14, 10:14pm

Post #3 of 14 (2473 views)
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What a treat [In reply to] Can't Post

It's fun to watch the letter veer away from the short poem 'The Hoard' and unfold as practically the entire Silmarillion rolls out of Tolkien's head and onto the scribbled page. I wonder what was on the Prof's mind those days back in 1964?

One funny note: he says the "Sons of the Valar" led the war of the Last Battle against Morgoth. I hadn't known he was still cherishing the idea that many of the Maiar figures of his pantheon were still considered the children of the elder Valar!

Thanks for this.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Aug 15, 6:07am

Post #4 of 14 (2418 views)
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Was this letter known to Christopher Tolkien? [In reply to] Can't Post

As concerns Thingol's death, this appears to be more like the text of the 1977 Silmarillion than the latest writings in The History of Middle-earth.

Interesting that this text has Maglor dying.


Glory to the heroes.

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Felagund
Rohan


Aug 15, 11:33pm

Post #5 of 14 (2362 views)
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poor Maglor [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think I've read a 'Maglor death' before. I always did like the idea of him wandering the world alone, nursing his pain and (presumably) regret - both a survivor and victim of that terrible oath. .

And many thanks to Elthir for posting the link!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Elthir
Grey Havens


Aug 16, 1:17pm

Post #6 of 14 (2316 views)
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You might have, but maybe forgot. [In reply to] Can't Post

There's a "Maglor death" in a letter:


Quote
"The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown, only to be lost. The last two sons of Feanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth."

JRRT 1951, Letters


And from a Lay, Maelor (Maglor) ending up in the Sea



Quote
"No other player has there been,
no other lips or fingers seen
so skilled, 'tis said in elven-lore,
save Maelor* son of Feanor,
forgotten harper, singer doomed,
who young when Laurelin yet bloomed
to endless lamentation passed
and in the tombless sea was cast."


The Lay of Leithian Recommenced, HME III


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 16, 2:19pm

Post #7 of 14 (2318 views)
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You may recall that back in 2010 [In reply to] Can't Post

in a thread at the old LOTR Fanatics Plaza (ironically about Charles Noad's review of my book), Wayne and Christina made a post stating that Christina had seen this manuscript when it was sold by Sotheby's in December 1984. They note that a few years previously Christina had sent copies of her notes about the manuscript to Christopher, which he found interesting.

Thanks to Eldy, here is an archived copy of that thread:

https://web.archive.org/...;p=232653#post232653

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 16, 5:12pm

Post #8 of 14 (2299 views)
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How extraordinary! [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering the lack of narrative for the destruction of Doriath after the 1930 QN, it’s remarkable to read the closest thing we’ll ever have of a post-LOTR Necklace of the Dwarves account, including little bits of dialogue! This is definitely a must-read for anyone interested in the history of The Silmarillion.

"Behold! the hope of Elvenland,
the fire of Fëanor, Light of Morn
before the sun and moon were born,
thus out of bondage came at last,
from iron to mortal hand it passed."
-The Lay of Leithian


Felagund
Rohan


Aug 16, 9:06pm

Post #9 of 14 (2286 views)
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thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for these! I obviously fixated on the fate of Maglor I preferred (his survival) rather than the various references to his death.

And the Letter, yes, now that you've fired up my brain cells. But not the Lay, which makes me both sad and also look forward to reading it again for the first time since the mid-'80s :)

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 17, 12:21am

Post #10 of 14 (2281 views)
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You might find this discussion interesting [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thank you for these! I obviously fixated on the fate of Maglor I preferred (his survival) rather than the various references to his death.


We discussed this aspect of the manuscript at considerable length last month.

"Concerning the Hoard" and the Ruin of Doriath

Of particular note is the observation (not by me) that in contrast to what is stated in that previous discussion that I linked to, the manuscript does not say that Thingol was killed outside the walls of Menegroth.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Elthir
Grey Havens


Aug 17, 1:36pm

Post #11 of 14 (2232 views)
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The Tale of Years [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I'm getting old, but where is Maglor's fate discussed in the linked thread? Or did you mean something else?


Anyway, to your knowledge, has anyone ever "definitively" dated the note associated with Tolkien's "cannot" on The Tale of Years, or come up with a reason why it cannot be relatively late?

For example, there's a marginal note to section 149 of The Annals of Aman (the typescript, itself dating about 1958) that seems very late indeed -- judging by the content, I would say the note itself is post 1967. I'm not saying we necessarily have a similar situation here, but if we certainly don't (have something similar) -- well maybe not certainly -- as that might be technically impossible . . .

. . . but if we "probably certainly" don't Wink what would the reason be!


And I realize that to even possibly post date CTH(oard) we would be leaping forward quite notably . . .

. . . then again, Tolkien can surprise!


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 17, 1:52pm

Post #12 of 14 (2228 views)
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Not Maglor's fate [In reply to] Can't Post

Thingol's.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Felagund
Rohan


Aug 22, 5:51pm

Post #13 of 14 (2063 views)
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And thank you for this! [In reply to] Can't Post

I enjoyed the discussion over in the Hall on this :)

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 22, 7:26pm

Post #14 of 14 (2054 views)
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You're welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad you enjoyed. it.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

 
 

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