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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 14 2022, 7:24pm
Post #1 of 14
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"Concerning . . . The Hoard"
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At another website, someone called Arvegil145 has posted:
__________
That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!
I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!
[I can't get the first link to work here -- Elthir]
(. . .) The transcript:
https://docs.google.com/...vS_UEYP72pA_E60/edit
__________
Wow!
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 14 2022, 7:33pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Aug 15 2022, 6:07am
Post #4 of 14
(4251 views)
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Was this letter known to Christopher Tolkien?
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As concerns Thingol's death, this appears to be more like the text of the 1977 Silmarillion than the latest writings in The History of Middle-earth.
Interesting that this text has Maglor dying.
Glory to the heroes.
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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Felagund
Rohan
Aug 15 2022, 11:33pm
Post #5 of 14
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I don't think I've read a 'Maglor death' before. I always did like the idea of him wandering the world alone, nursing his pain and (presumably) regret - both a survivor and victim of that terrible oath. .
And many thanks to Elthir for posting the link!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 16 2022, 1:17pm
Post #6 of 14
(4148 views)
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You might have, but maybe forgot.
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There's a "Maglor death" in a letter:
"The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown, only to be lost. The last two sons of Feanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting themselves into the sea, and the pits of the earth."
JRRT 1951, Letters
And from a Lay, Maelor (Maglor) ending up in the Sea
"No other player has there been,
no other lips or fingers seen
so skilled, 'tis said in elven-lore,
save Maelor* son of Feanor,
forgotten harper, singer doomed,
who young when Laurelin yet bloomed
to endless lamentation passed
and in the tombless sea was cast."
The Lay of Leithian Recommenced, HME III
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Aug 16 2022, 2:19pm
Post #7 of 14
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You may recall that back in 2010
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in a thread at the old LOTR Fanatics Plaza (ironically about Charles Noad's review of my book), Wayne and Christina made a post stating that Christina had seen this manuscript when it was sold by Sotheby's in December 1984. They note that a few years previously Christina had sent copies of her notes about the manuscript to Christopher, which he found interesting.
Thanks to Eldy, here is an archived copy of that thread:
https://web.archive.org/...;p=232653#post232653
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Aug 16 2022, 5:12pm
Post #8 of 14
(4131 views)
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Considering the lack of narrative for the destruction of Doriath after the 1930 QN, it’s remarkable to read the closest thing we’ll ever have of a post-LOTR Necklace of the Dwarves account, including little bits of dialogue! This is definitely a must-read for anyone interested in the history of The Silmarillion.
"Behold! the hope of Elvenland,
the fire of Fëanor, Light of Morn
before the sun and moon were born,
thus out of bondage came at last,
from iron to mortal hand it passed." -The Lay of Leithian
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Felagund
Rohan
Aug 16 2022, 9:06pm
Post #9 of 14
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Thank you for these! I obviously fixated on the fate of Maglor I preferred (his survival) rather than the various references to his death.
And the Letter, yes, now that you've fired up my brain cells. But not the Lay, which makes me both sad and also look forward to reading it again for the first time since the mid-'80s :)
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Aug 17 2022, 12:21am
Post #10 of 14
(4114 views)
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You might find this discussion interesting
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Thank you for these! I obviously fixated on the fate of Maglor I preferred (his survival) rather than the various references to his death.
We discussed this aspect of the manuscript at considerable length last month.
"Concerning the Hoard" and the Ruin of Doriath
Of particular note is the observation (not by me) that in contrast to what is stated in that previous discussion that I linked to, the manuscript does not say that Thingol was killed outside the walls of Menegroth.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 17 2022, 1:36pm
Post #11 of 14
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I know I'm getting old, but where is Maglor's fate discussed in the linked thread? Or did you mean something else?
Anyway, to your knowledge, has anyone ever "definitively" dated the note associated with Tolkien's "cannot" on The Tale of Years, or come up with a reason why it cannot be relatively late?
For example, there's a marginal note to section 149 of The Annals of Aman (the typescript, itself dating about 1958) that seems very late indeed -- judging by the content, I would say the note itself is post 1967. I'm not saying we necessarily have a similar situation here, but if we certainly don't (have something similar) -- well maybe not certainly -- as that might be technically impossible . . .
. . . but if we "probably certainly" don't  what would the reason be!
And I realize that to even possibly post date CTH(oard) we would be leaping forward quite notably . . .
. . . then again, Tolkien can surprise!
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Aug 17 2022, 1:52pm
Post #12 of 14
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Thingol's.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Felagund
Rohan
Aug 22 2022, 5:51pm
Post #13 of 14
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I enjoyed the discussion over in the Hall on this :)
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Aug 22 2022, 7:26pm
Post #14 of 14
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I'm glad you enjoyed. it.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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