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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: TV Discussion: The Rings of Power:
Founding Arnor and Gondor

Junesong
Lorien


Mon, 8:05pm

Post #1 of 9 (331 views)
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Founding Arnor and Gondor Can't Post

Just a thought here:

To accommodate the "condensed" timeline, I'm guessing the show will play around a little bit with WHEN the realms of Arnor and Gondor are built.

Specifically, I'm thinking of places like Amon Sul, Minas Tirith, Minas Ithil, Osgiliath, the Argonath and even Orthanc etc. Tolkien has always been pretty vague about exactly WHEN these things were founded/built/established and especially vague on HOW it happened.

I'm just assuming that the ROP will have these things founded/built/established DURING the reign of Numenor rather than after its fall (like in the text)

Not only because this is a lot of big stuff to fit into the last season (assuming the last season takes place after the fall of Numenor - although I wouldn't be surprised if the fall of Numenor happens much closer in action to the Last Alliance)

Do we care?

When we talk about the timeline changes, I think these are important changes to consider. Not just which king is shown when, or which Durin is which, but the establishing of big famous locations will likely happen sooner and possibly even by different people than we know from the book.

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Eldy
Grey Havens


Tue, 2:33am

Post #2 of 9 (296 views)
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I'm down [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien wasn't really that vague about most of the particular structures you mentioned,[1] but it wouldn't bother me if at least some of them are constructed earlier in ROP's timeline than the book's. The only one that would rankle for me is the Argonath, which were built in the Third Age, and depicted individuals who had by then long since passed into legend, but in ROP will be major characters.[2] The rest are fair game in my view. McPayne presumably want Middle-earth to be recognizable to viewers. While I think hewing too closely to what we know from the late Third Age would be bad form for a distant prequel, even setting aside fidelity to the text, this is not an instance of timeline changing that concerns me much. I will grumble if they use the name Arnor—it has no business called "kingly land" in Sindarin before it's the seat of a King—but the name Gondor is "canonically" a translation of a pre-Númenórean name, so it should be in use during ROP if it's already been settled (which I have to assume it has).


In Reply To
Not only because this is a lot of big stuff to fit into the last season (assuming the last season takes place after the fall of Numenor - although I wouldn't be surprised if the fall of Numenor happens much closer in action to the Last Alliance)


There's "only" 110 years between the Downfall and the start of the war in the book timeline, but I likewise assume that gap will be greatly reduced in the show.

---

[1] Amon Sûl is the only one I'd consider vague, since I think Orthanc is implied to have been built at the same time as the other palantír-hosting towers of Gondor. It would stand to reason that Amon Sûl also came from that era—we do know it was in existence during Elendil's lifetime—but I can't think of anything offhand to rule out the possibility of it being older.

[2] Isildur will be, anyway. The other statue in the book was of Anárion, but I'm not sure if he's going to feature in the show. Peter Jackson left him out entirely and changed the other statue to be of Elendil.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Tue, 1:18pm

Post #3 of 9 (236 views)
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Anarion's replacement [In reply to] Can't Post

Instead of having a brother, Anarion, Isildur will apparently have a sister, Carine. Who, at least if Fellowship of the Fans can be believed, will play a very different role.


Quote
they detailed a bit of Isildur’s relationship with his sister claiming, “Isildur’s sister (Carine) doesn’t want Isildur joining the army. There is said to be one emotional scene where she chases Isildur through the Numenorean crowd yelling ‘Isil, isil, isilduurrr.'”

Unsure

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eldy
Grey Havens


Tue, 5:10pm

Post #4 of 9 (217 views)
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Mm. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd heard of Carine, but wasn't sure if she would be replacing Anárion or existing alongside him. Both Isildur and Anárion had four sons each, so it's not like elite Númenóreans only ever had small families, and we know the family trees from that era are incomplete (Amandil, Elendil, and both his sons all must have had wives, but none are ever named). So I don't mind new family members being added, though it would be nice to see Anárion get some respect one of these days. :P

The running through a crowd scene sounds pretty corny, though I suppose it might work better in context...


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Tue, 5:17pm

Post #5 of 9 (212 views)
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My assumption [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't specifically heard that Anárion was out, but since we haven't heard anything to the contrary, but have heard about the sister, my assumption is that she is in and he is out.

Of course, I could be wrong.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Silvered-glass
Bree

Wed, 9:58am

Post #6 of 9 (169 views)
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Anárion [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd say there is a high chance that the sister will join the army dressed as a man and call herself Anárion.

The writers will justify this by pointing out that in Tolkien the Moon is male and the Sun female, so it would only be natural for a character named after the Sun to be actually female.


Asger
Rivendell


2:48pm

Post #7 of 9 (53 views)
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Well, a sister would be OK… [In reply to] Can't Post

There’s of course lots of people in Numenor not mentioned in the rexts. But I would very much like to see Isildur and Anarions younger brother Herendil. There could be a higly dramatic story about he being of the ‘kings men’ and opposing his father and brothers. But that will obviously not happen.

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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


8:33pm

Post #8 of 9 (20 views)
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What about a romance? [In reply to] Can't Post

The actual rumor that has been spreading is that Carine will form a romantic relationship with a previously undocumented son of Pharazon. That, itself, is a bit of a problem as the Numenoreans are characterized as monogamous and there is no hint in the legendarium that Pharazon had a wife before Miriel or fathered any children out of wedlock. Plus a Romeo/Juliet romance is a tired old trope.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Eldy
Grey Havens


8:54pm

Post #9 of 9 (11 views)
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Monogamy [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That, itself, is a bit of a problem as the Numenoreans are characterized as monogamous


The absolute monogamy of the Númenóreans was a characteristic of their semi-sanctified state in the early part of their history, when they came as close to being like Elves, which Tolkien imagined in even more rarefied terms in the later part of his life, as any branch of humanity ever did. Book!Pharazôn lived a thousand-plus years after "the Shadow" set in on Númenor, though, and he represented the nadir of his society's moral decline. Having a child out of wedlock would be the least of his offenses (if one considers it an offense at all), but as expansions to the source material go, I don't think it would be particularly discordant with the text.

It remains to be seen how ROP will handle the concept of Númenórean moral decline in light of the compressed timeline, but if their society is as anti-Elvish as some of the leaks suggest, it sounds like the Shadow is pretty well entrenched.


(This post was edited by Eldy on 8:56pm)

 
 

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