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squire
Half-elven
Apr 14 2022, 12:32am
Post #26 of 52
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I should probably not get involved here, but...
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What I mean by my header is that I've never taken to such detailed dissections of Tolkien's world-building as this discussion has been engaged in. HOWEVER, I was basically fascinated by these comments of yours:
"Also, Elendil being born in 3119 would make him only 84 years younger than Tar-Palantir—something like a single generation to Númenóreans..."
"If we knock, say, 75 years off Elendil's age to make him a generation younger,..."
What I gather here is that Numenoreans' "generations" were on the lines of 75-85 years. That is, Numenoreans typically had their children when they reached the age of 75-85 years, out of a lifespan that hovered in the 300-year-old ballpark.
How does that work, given that these are, still, Men? Not Elves, with their immortal lifespans and total disregard for the concept of a generation. These are Men - who we know have been given tremendously extended lives - but who, if they are Men, come of age physically by about the 15th to 20th year, depending on ones ideas about what constitutes maturity. Surely they can then have children, so that their generation time should be, as with all Men, about 20-25 years.
But no. For Numenoreans, an extended time before dying is said to correlate with an extended time before childbearing. Why? How? Why does long life for these gifted humans preclude sexual maturity before the 75th year? What the heck do they do between the ages of, say 10 years old and 75 years old: skip rope and play hide-and-seek? Play with dolls and indulge themselves in games of sport? If they're not having babies yet, they're children by any standard. I'm having the hardest time imagining the young people of Numenor suffering an extended childhood of 60 years.
Is this really what Tolkien attested in his design of Numenorean society? Sorry to be so cranky, but none of it seems to accord with Tolkien's idea that, in his world, Men are as close to we human beings as can be, in order to contrast with the Elves, Dwarves, and other beings of Faerie.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 14 2022, 1:42am
Post #27 of 52
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Seventy-five years was an off-the-cuff remark going by memory, but I went back and checked the relevant chapters of The Nature of Middle-earth (3.XI and 3.XII) in order to reply to you. There are several tables in the latter chapter, "The Ageing of Númenóreans," which are relevant to your question. They divide Númenóreans into "Normal" and "Royal" categories; Normals come to "weariness" at 200–225 years of age (or later), while Royals do so at 350–400 ("or a little later"); in early Númenórean history, it was expected that one would lay down their life once weariness set in. This maps onto the 3x vs 5x normal lifespan difference I mentioned in my previous post, though it's inconsistent with the idea of the Kings living longer than even other royals/nobles.
In any event, the important chart here is for ages at marriage. I don't think I can do tables with Gossamer Forum's version of BB code, so:
Normal Men: 50–100 (extreme range 20–175)
Normal Women: 30–75 (extreme range (20–125)
Royal Men: 100–150 (extreme range 25–250)
Royal Women: 50–100 (extreme range 25–200)
For reasons explained upthread, I look mainly at the "Normal" range when talking about late-stage Númenor, since I subscribe to the idea that elite lifespans declined in the later part of the Second Age. As such, 75 years is right in the middle of the range in which we might expect Elendil's father to have married, and so I think it works as a very rough proxy for a Númenórean generation as measured from father to son. If anything, I would expect Amandil to have married and had children later, based on my beliefs about the exceptional longevity of the Lords of Andúnië.
Tolkien was clear that Númenóreans matured at the same rate as normal humans until about the age of 20, when their rate of aging slowed dramatically (NoMe, p. 318; note this is a different chapter than the one referenced above). They could biologically have children at ages comparable to normal humans; the reasons for the delay derive from Tolkien's thoughts on Númenórean culture, and his general approach in late texts of presenting them as a sanctified people, the closest humanity got to being Elves. Thus, "Númenóreans were not lustful [...] Until the Shadow came there were in Númenor few gluttons or drunkards. No one ate or drank to excess, or indeed much at any one time" (NoMe, p. 319 fn). Based on this and similar passages, it would seem Tolkien imagined young Númenóreans refrained from sex before marriage for decades and no one really minded.
Similar notes are struck about the throughout the chapter. "Desire for marriage, the begetting, bearing, and rearing of children, thus occupied a smaller place in the lives of Númenóreans, even of the women, than among ordinary Men. Marriage was regarded as natural for all, and once entered into was permanent, but like the Eldar they tended to make the period pf parenthood ... a single connected and limited period of their lives" (NoMe, p. 318). Númenóreans were "strictly monogamous [...] and they were specially graced. In general they had little inclination to, and a conscious detestation of lust, greed, hate, and cruelty, and tyranny. Not all of course were so noble. There were such things as wickedness among them, at first very rarely to be seen" (p. 321).
To be clear, I find this sanitized version of Númenor pretty boring compared to a lot of Tolkien's other invented societies, even with the disclaimers quoted above. In fairness, we can reasonably assume of other passages that the ostensible in-universe author(s) were again engaging in hyperbole when they made sweeping declarations like "no one ate or drank to excess." But even if we take this idyllic portrait of pre-Shadow Númenor at face value, it began to erode shortly after the halfway point of the Second Age. "The Line of Elros" dates "the first coming of the Shadow upon the bliss of Númenor" to Tar-Ciryatan forcing his father to yield the Sceptre early, in II.1869, though the Shadow didn't really start to set in until the reign of his successor, Tar-Atanamir.
Even in the first half of the Second Age, not everything we have about Númenor is all sunshine and roses. Erendis was deeply resentful about a lot of things—not without reason—but hearing her take may be a useful counterbalance, particularly as it includes one of the more frank references to sexuality in Númenor:
Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other. The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them – and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play. They would be craftsmen and loremasters and heroes all at once; and women to them are but fires on the hearth – for others to tend, until they are tired of play in the evening. All things were made for their service: hills are for quarries, river to furnish water or to turn wheels, trees for boards, women for their body's need, or if fair to adorn their table and hearth; and children to be teased when nothing else is to do – but they would as soon play with their hounds' whelps. To all they are gracious and kind, merry as larks in the morning (if the sun shines); for they are never wrathful if they can avoid it. Men should be gay, they hold, generous as the rich, giving away what they do not need. Anger they show only when they become aware, suddenly, that there are other wills in the world beside their own. Then they will be as ruthless as the seawind if anything dare to withstand them. (UT, pp. 206–207; emphasis mine)
While Erendis' view was informed by her deeply flawed marriage to Aldarion, we read similar things about Númenórean gender dynamics in NoMe. Here's Tolkien speaking in his own voice, more or less:
The long life of the Númenóreans was in answer to the actual prayers of the Edain (and Elros). Manwë warned them of its perils. They asked to have more or less the "life-span of old", because they wanted to learn more. [This means the lifespan humanity enjoyed before the Fall; see "The Tale of Adanel" in HoMe X. –Eldy]
As Erendis said later, they became a kind of imitation Elves, and their Men had so much in their heads and desire for doing that they ever felt the pressure of time, and so seldom rested or rejoiced in the present. Fortunately their wives were cool and busy – but Númenor was no place for great love. (NoMe, p. 330)
I'm not here to tell anyone which ideas about Númenor they should find most interesting, but I hope I've managed to convey some of Tolkien's thoughts on the matter. And if I've missed anything important, hopefully someone will correct that!
(This post was edited by Eldy on Apr 14 2022, 1:46am)
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 14 2022, 2:32am
Post #28 of 52
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Thank you so much, and I see I have some work to do
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That is, I guess I have to hack my way through my unopened copy of Nature of Middle-earth before further embarrassing myself on these boards.
I should have known it was those sexless Elves that would model a race of Men mature enough to conceive children, but uninterested enough in sex to put it off for six or seven decades because ... well, it only barely makes sense with the Elves, and not at all with Men, even Men of Numenor. To me, at least.
Again, thanks for the detailed and cited info about what the heck Tolkien had in mind in this regard!
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 14 2022, 2:46am
Post #29 of 52
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There's no cause for embarrassment in my view; I'm just fortunate I had the time and opportunity to dive into NoMe right away when it was published. And we seem to be on the same page regarding how much sanctified Númenor does or doesn't ring true.
(This post was edited by Eldy on Apr 14 2022, 2:48am)
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Apr 14 2022, 2:36pm
Post #30 of 52
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I've often thought lately of opening a thread inviting people to name one thing they'd be most willing to change about the story--either just in situ or within a conversation about adaptations (or cryptoextrapotations). Actually one of the reasons I haven't is that I'm not sure which room it goes in.
But for me this is the unambiguous answer, right here. This prim, dour chastity belt that JRRT places on the elves (and the Numenoreans, as you have now shown) in defiance of all reason and good taste... it brings joy to no one. It just makes me tremendously sad.
This is not, mind you, to say that I want to turn LOTR into a Game of Thrones or a fanfic romp in a hayloft. But there's leagues and leagues of middle ground between here and there. I'd settle for enough ambiguity to flirt with.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Apr 14 2022, 4:31pm
Post #32 of 52
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This prim, dour chastity belt that JRRT places on the elves (and the Numenoreans, as you have now shown) in defiance of all reason and good taste... it brings joy to no one. It just makes me tremendously sad.
This is very true.
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Apr 14 2022, 4:47pm
Post #33 of 52
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oh, it's probably just absinthe
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Once bitten, I shall defer to your judgment on the definition. As to what is and isn't an adaptation per se, I think you've presented a pretty irresistible case on that. Even if I personally find more of value in the less-rigorous cousins of adaptation proper.
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Aelfwine
Rivendell
Apr 14 2022, 5:16pm
Post #34 of 52
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This is where it helps to have some understanding of Tolkien's Catholicism. In short, concupiscence (which is any undue desire, including lust) is a consequence of the Fall. Since the Elves did not fall, they did not experience concupiscence: they were the masters of their desires, rather than being mastered by them as fallen Man is by nature. The earliest Númenóreans, having been granted some restoration of their unfallen state, likewise avoided concupiscence, for a time. What is called here "prim, dour chastity" is, in Tolkien's eyes, a mark of what unfallen Man was, and was meant to be in their unmarred nature.
--
Carl F. Hostetter
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Junesong
Rohan
Apr 14 2022, 5:21pm
Post #35 of 52
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As a Catholic and lifetime Tolkien fan I've never heard this before. So the MEN in Tolkien's writings were still sons and daughters of Adam and Eve (or something similar enough to have a fall etc?)
And the Elves were unfallen? How do we reconcile this will the lust of Maeglin? Or the words and actions of Feanor? Etc etc? The First Age elves seem to be pretty fallen.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Aelfwine
Rivendell
Apr 14 2022, 5:35pm
Post #36 of 52
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The fallen state of Man and unfallen state of Elves
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All this is made plain in various letters and in various writings in HoMe and (now) NoMe. Men are corporately fallen, because the first Men (male and female) rejected Eru and took Melkor as their God. Elves did not fall corporately, though individual Elves could (and did) do evil things, and in no case did any Elf reject Eru as God.
I've had plenty of reason to rue the sad state of Catholic catechesis in this country — as a post-Vatican-II-born Catholic I experienced this lack first hand, until I began to educate myself in the Catechism (which says of concupiscence (no. 2515) that it "stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s moral faculties and, without being in itself an offence, inclines man to commit sins”) and other sources of actual Catholic teaching in my fourth decade of life. This is one of the main reasons that I provided Appendix I to NoMe, because even Catholics these days can't be counted on to understand what would have been very clear references to Catholics of Tolkien's time.
--
Carl F. Hostetter
(This post was edited by Aelfwine on Apr 14 2022, 5:44pm)
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 14 2022, 5:47pm
Post #37 of 52
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...whose mother left the Church before I was born, I found that appendix very useful. Regardless of my own preferences in fiction, it was one of the most interesting parts of NoMe in terms of better understanding Tolkien's approach. 
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Apr 14 2022, 5:55pm
Post #38 of 52
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Oh, I'm well aware of its provenance.
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But I do not withdraw my description of it.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 14 2022, 5:56pm
Post #39 of 52
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There's an account of the Fall...
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...in the form of a legend preserved by humans themselves (specifically the Folk of Hador) called "The Tale of Adanel," which is included with the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in the chapter of that title in HoMe X. Though the Hadorian legend claims that humans were originally immortal and punished with death, whereas in NoMe, Tolkien specifies that the punishment was a reduction in lifespan, which was (ultimately temporarily) undone for the Númenóreans (p. 223). Another chapter provides support for a favored fan theory of mine, that the corruption of Men "was achieved not by Melkor in person [as suggested in the Tale of Adanel], but by Sauron" (p. 35).
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Aelfwine
Rivendell
Apr 14 2022, 5:57pm
Post #40 of 52
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I've taken flak from some quarters for App. I, but most of those who comment on it at all have been appreciative. To my mind, it's no different in kind from me explaining various linguistic points or Tolkien's various allusions to technology and his military experience — it's intended to clarify what might otherwise be obscure or puzzling.
--
Carl F. Hostetter
(This post was edited by Aelfwine on Apr 14 2022, 5:58pm)
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Felagund
Rohan
Apr 14 2022, 6:33pm
Post #41 of 52
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The 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' also introduces the concept of the entry of the Edain into Beleriand being associated with a partial reclamation of their 'pre-Fall' lifespan, as per Andreth's remark: "Our passing was swifter before we found this land." The reference is to the fact that Bëor the Old, his son Baran and grandson Boron all lived into their 90s, which was considered by Andreth to be a significant improvement on the span of the pre-Beleriandic Edain.
This is also picked up in The Silmarillion ('Of the Coming of Men into the West'), where we have: "The years of the Edain were lengthened, according to the reckoning of Men, after their coming to Beleriand...".
I've always assumed that this was because the Edain's contact with the Eldar marked a turning point of sorts in their 'return' to something akin to their earlier 'state of grace', or at least the potential for a such a trajectory, based on an explicit rejection of the corruption of Morgoth (or indeed Sauron...!). I thought I'd read words to this effect in Tolkien's own writings somewhere but a reference eludes me. Anyway, as you say, the 'Númenórean' phase of humanity (or the Edainic bit of it) was the big extension 'moment' in longevity. Even if it could be argued that this (re)boost had been presaged by the original emigration to Beleriand and subsequent Eldarin tutelage and alliance.
Or... the Edain just learned better sanitation from the Eldar and stopped dying early of easily preventable diseases...!
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The Dude
Rivendell
Apr 14 2022, 8:15pm
Post #42 of 52
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Briefly breaking my absence...
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But for me this is the unambiguous answer, right here. This prim, dour chastity belt that JRRT places on the elves (and the Numenoreans, as you have now shown) in defiance of all reason and good taste... it brings joy to no one. It just makes me tremendously sad.
It is possible to consider Houellebecq one of the best writers of our time and still realize that there lies tremendous artistic power (and a global, not just Western, age-old tradition supporting it) in the sublimation, abnegation, and even downright denegation of the human sex drive.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 15 2022, 4:16am
Post #43 of 52
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...that the increase in Edainic longevity was due to "grace" in reward for their aiding in the war against Morgoth, but, like you, I can't recall where—or if—this was explicitly stated by Tolkien.
Or... the Edain just learned better sanitation from the Eldar and stopped dying early of easily preventable diseases...!
I read a really interesting post on Tumblr a couple years ago about how, based on comparable historical situations, the Edain should have seen a major increase in mortality due to disease upon their transition to a sedentary lifestyle for the first time, before eventually evening out. That this did not occur might well have been in part due to the Elves intervening and teaching the Edain about sanitation etc., though my preferred solution is to toss out the "many lives of wandering" line in The Silmarillion in favor of LOTR's concept that the Barrow-building Edainic civilization of Eriador, which was sophisticated enough to have cities and armies, predated the Edain's entrance into Beleriand. That's not at all the impression one gets from TS, but I think there are ways to smooth over some of the potential inconsistencies, albeit by engaging in a great deal of speculation and invention. I'm going to be good for once and not turn this post into a mini-essay, though. 
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Junesong
Rohan
Apr 15 2022, 11:47am
Post #44 of 52
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Thanks for this!
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Felagund
Rohan
Apr 19 2022, 11:11pm
Post #45 of 52
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I hadn't come across that Hostetter & Wynne comment in Vinyar Tengwar 25 before and will try and track down a copy - many thanks for the reference!
You can see that I have a slightly different take on what may constitute 'Eldacar precedent' when it comes to Faramir's musings about the recruitment practices of the Ruling Stewards. I'll line up the quotes I had in mind at the time of writing the original post, in full, for reference. The first two are from 'Appendix A' of LotR and the third is from 'Cirion & Eorl' (UT) - emphases are my own:
"After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dúnedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men. For many of the great had been slain in the Kin-strife; while Eldacar showed favour to the Northmen, by whose help he had regained the crown, and the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion."
Preceded by the recruitment policies of Eldacar's paternal grandfather, Rómendacil II:
"But since he [Rómendacil II] needed men, and desired to strengthen the bond between Gondor and the Northmen, he took many of them into his service and gave to some high rank in his armies."
And, to take a backward glance all the way from the days of the Stewardship of Cirion:
"He was Borondir, a great rider of a family that claimed descent from a captain of the Northmen in the service of the Kings of old."
The Kin-strife is certainly a singular event in Gondor's history and I take the point that its course and aftermath is best interpreted with care, when drawing conclusions about demography. And I agree, the Dúnedain of Gondor clearly didn't leave their 'mingled blood = lesser' racialism completely behind, even with the expulsion of the Castamirid faction at the end of the Kin-strife. Eldacar also had plenty of incentive particular to him and his personal circumstances to import and reward his Northmen followers, after his dearly-bought victory. That said, facing a dearth of manpower, both in the upper echelons of Gondorian society (the 'houses of the Dúnedain') and in the population at large, from whom Gondor's Kings must have drawn their local soldiery, Eldacar's policy of replenishment was also a rational decision that many a ruler in similar circumstance would have made. And thus we get: "the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion."
Indeed, as per the second quote above, we see his grandfather foreshadowing this great replenishment with recruitment of his own. Yes, statecraft was also involved to shore up alliances further afield. But in both instances, these influxes are invited and depicted as necessary, based on manpower shortages. Moreover, unlike the circumstances of Cirion's formal cession of Calenardhon to the Éothéod, many centuries later, these Northmen were invited into the direct service of the Gondorian state, and became part of the population of that state - as the third quote above helps to attest: Borondir, at least in terms of family tradition, was a product of ancient recruitment drives, instigated as much as as a millennium before his birth. I drop in the reference to Borondir too as an indicator that at least one Gondorian family felt proud of its mixed heritage - even if that certainly doesn't quash my agreeing with you that social status in Gondor is more often than not defined along Númenórean / non-Númenórean lines.
Back to Faramir's claim in 'The Window on the West', where he appears to ascribe a unique status to the replenishment policies of the Ruling Stewards. I reckon I'll go as far as agreeing that the Stewards may have been the first to look 'inside' Gondor's borders, to the "sturdy folk of the sea-coast" and so on, to replenish Gondor's strength. However, based the work of Gondor's feigned historians, the taking of steps to recruit hitherto untapped demographic resources for the purposes of shoring up Gondor's strength does not appear to have been an innovation of the Stewards.
Out of interest, I had a quick look through the source material to see if I could find which period Faramir may have been referring to, and the most pertinent reference I could find was from the Stewardship of Ecthelion II (III.2886-2984), Faramir's grandfather:
"He [Ecthelion II] encouraged all men of worth from near or far to enter his service, and to those who proved trustworthy he gave rank and reward."
Not a claim for a terminus post quem by any means but a date to play with, nonetheless. While the passage largely serves to introduce us to the service and deeds of Thorongil in Gondor, it may also provide a bit of narrative cover for local Gondorians doing their bit for Steward & Country, as per the potted history Faramir provides.
I'm now very tempted to start a Reading Room thread on the Kin-strife but it's late and I need some sleep!
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 20 2022, 2:30am
Post #46 of 52
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I don't think we disagree here
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You provide an excellent survey of the special status of the Northmen in Gondor at different periods in its history. Even before the Kin-strife, they appear to have been considered by some Gondorians to be on more or less equal status with ethnic Númenóreans, or as close as any culture whose ancestors never left Middle-earth could get. In the drafts of Appendix A, it's said Rómendacil "could not forbid [the marriage of Valacar and Vidumavi] or refuse to recognize it without earning the enmity of Vidugavia. Indeed all the Northmen would have been angered, and those in his service would have been no longer to be trusted" (HoMe XII, p. 260). That gives some indication, I think, of how important the Northmen were to Gondor's defense policy (an anachronistic term, admittedly), not just as an allied buffer state, but as an important part of Gondor's own army. After the Kin-strife, the equitable view became predominant, and Northmen ancestry was no longer considered to count against a family or individual's "purity" of Númenórean descent. On the other hand, the native Haladin-related peoples of Gondor had a very different historical relationship with the Dúnedain—not that you've disputed that.
I have some thoughts on the Kin-strife, as you may recall from my "Who Is a Númenórean?" essay, but I'll refrain from getting into that in this thread. 
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Felagund
Rohan
Apr 20 2022, 8:47pm
Post #47 of 52
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I love Faramir's potted history of Gondor but I can't help but be wary of the biases baked into his education :)
That passage you quote from, buried in the drafts of 'Appendix A' is so rich and one of the reasons why I began pondering a separate thread on the Kin-strife. As part of getting organised for that, I will defo enjoy re-reading your awesome "Who is a Númenórean?" essay - which you really should re-post on TORn btw!
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 20 2022, 9:41pm
Post #48 of 52
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Thank you for your kind words!
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That essay benefited from feedback I received about the draft version on TORn, but that was four years ago now, so I'd have to reread the full thing and see if my views have changed on any of its points. That should be good preparation for your Kin-strife thread, in any event!
(This post was edited by Eldy on Apr 20 2022, 9:41pm)
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Felagund
Rohan
May 22 2022, 2:29pm
Post #49 of 52
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An old thread now but in my research for a completely different post, I came across the following reference, which I hadn't really noticed before ('Appendix F', LotR):
"... the land of the tributary princes of Dol Amroth."
Anyway, I thought I'd add it to the collection that sprang up here last month, as neither of us picked up on it at the time. I hadn't really thought of the Dol Amroth principality in this way before. As a fief of Gondor, certainly, but 'tributary' feels slightly more arm's length. At the height of Gondorian power south of the the River Harnen, various kingdoms of the Haradrim were tributary to Gondor. I'm definitely not suggesting that Dol Amroth was anywhere near on the same footing as these 'client states' by force of Gondorian arms. However, the use of the term does add yet more to the already established idea that Dol Amroth was something special within the Kingdom of Gondor.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
May 22 2022, 8:52pm
Post #50 of 52
(701 views)
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I'd completely missed that line, yeah. Definitely something that bears thinking about. A quick search in my ebook version of ROTK shows that the only other two uses of tributary in that volume are used in the context of Mordor: the Mouth of Sauron's demand that Gondor and Rohan submit to Sauron (V 9), and a fleeting mention of unspecified "tributary lands" which provided "long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves" for Mordor (VI 2). Curious to see it pop up in a discussion of Gondor, whose outlying regions are usually described as fiefs, which implies closer and more mutual political ties, at least in my reading.
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