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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: TV Discussion: The Rings of Power:
Empire’s interview with John Howe

Marmoon
Bree


May 12 2022, 5:01pm

Post #1 of 19 (1087 views)
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Empire’s interview with John Howe Can't Post

In the upcoming issue of Empire, readers are teased with a few Rings of Power insights from John Howe, the famed Tolkien illustrator and concept artist for Jackson’s films and now for Amazon. Howe said he had fun imagining the sea-faring elves and he expressed his appreciation for the showrunners’ respect for Tolkien and his story themes.

https://www.empireonline.com/...-remember-exclusive/

https://apple.news/AP6jhwweaSMGWJJrISndx1g


Quote
“This isn’t the Middle-earth you remember. This is a world that’s very vibrant. The elves are not hidden away in Mirkwood or lingering in Rivendell. They’re busy constructing kingdoms. The dwarven kingdom of Moria is not an abandoned mine and the Grey Havens is not yet an abandoned city. I loved having the opportunity to explore that unseen history.”



Quote
“Tolkien’s stories deal with self-sacrifice and situations in which we are smaller than [the threats] we face. That’s one of the more poignant themes in The Lord Of The Rings. The Rings Of Power has that, with added epic scope.”



Eldy
Tol Eressea


May 12 2022, 8:15pm

Post #2 of 19 (1041 views)
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Seafaring Elves grabbed my attention [In reply to] Can't Post

This part jumped out at me the most:


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“We’re finally sailing on the oceans of Middle-earth,” teases Howe, promising a set of sea-faring elves. “They’re daunting and enterprising and are almost colonising the world. They were a lot of fun to imagine. It’s something neither Lord Of The Rings nor Hobbit movies went anywhere near.”


Most of what Howe describes sounds faithful to the Second Age of the books, and I'm really looking forward to seeing that more fantastical version of Middle-earth rendered onscreen (which is not the same as being completely confident I'll like the finished product). However, Elves exploring and "almost"(?) colonizing the world is a pretty big change. The Noldor seem the most likely to do something like this; perhaps Gil-galad's kingdom of Lindon is the metropole of this Elvish thalassocracy? We know he'll be in the show, but haven't heard any word of Círdan AFAIK.

Obviously, the Noldor weren't renowned as great seafarers, but Gil-galad was a protege of Círdan, more or less. And Turgon managed to put together maritime expeditions even at a distance, while he was in Gondolin, establishing some precedent for the Noldor being able to adapt.


(This post was edited by Eldy on May 12 2022, 8:22pm)


InTheChair
Rohan


May 12 2022, 8:19pm

Post #3 of 19 (1038 views)
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This is a world that’s very vibrant [In reply to] Can't Post

A little more colour in the visuals and not the brown filter of the three Lord of the Rings movies, could be a bit of an improvement really.


DGHCaretaker
Rohan

May 12 2022, 9:45pm

Post #4 of 19 (1016 views)
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Color Grading [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
A little more colour in the visuals and not the brown filter of the three Lord of the Rings movies, could be a bit of an improvement really.

Or the controversial green tint of the LOTR Blu-ray Extended Edition.

I am mildly encouraged that John Howe has survived any exits of those who might disagree with the "today" direction Rings of Power has decided to take. I did not even know he was involved.


(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on May 12 2022, 9:46pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 12 2022, 11:12pm

Post #5 of 19 (997 views)
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Turgon didn't really put together maritime expeditions [In reply to] Can't Post

He contracted my main Elf Cirdan to do so. It would be a shocking and unnecessary departure from the lore to have sea-faring Elves and not include Cirdan as a significant driver of that. Even in the LOTR appendices that they do have rights to there is references to Cirdan's mariners, such as the statement that "Even the mariners of Círdan were helpless" in the face of the ice-storm that killed Arvedui. Yes, that was in the Third Age, but the theme of Cirdan and his people being the main Elvish mariners is canonical throughout the lore of all Three Ages.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eldy
Tol Eressea


May 13 2022, 5:05am

Post #6 of 19 (973 views)
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I defer to you in matters of Círdan [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a vague thought in my mind that Turgon had sought Círdan's assistance in building ships rather than simply commissioning them, but checking the book—as I should have done earlier!—I see that I was misremembering. Crazy


Narvi
Lorien

May 13 2022, 11:19am

Post #7 of 19 (941 views)
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The question we should all be asking [In reply to] Can't Post

Will John Howe reprise his role as one of the Nine?


Archestratie
Rohan


May 13 2022, 12:41pm

Post #8 of 19 (926 views)
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Hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Wasn't it reported at some point that John Howe was off the project? Was that just fake news?

My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf

The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 13 2022, 1:15pm

Post #9 of 19 (915 views)
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Before this year [In reply to] Can't Post

My view of Cirdan was roughly the same as Clyde Kilby's.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Narvi
Lorien

May 13 2022, 1:39pm

Post #10 of 19 (913 views)
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I believe it's fake news [In reply to] Can't Post

He was in New Zealand for over a year before the pandemic working on the RoP production, and I think he may have remained there during the pandemic. He seems to be back in his usual Alpine haunts, if his brand-spanking-new IG is any indication. Of course, now that RoP has shifted production to Europe/Britain, his move might not signal much of anything in respect to his work with the production. He also speaks in the present tense in his interview in Empire, so I assume he's still very much involved.


Narvi
Lorien

May 13 2022, 1:56pm

Post #11 of 19 (907 views)
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His focus on the Grey Havens suggests Cirdan [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he might be conflating the elves of Lindon with the Numenoreans when he refers to colonization, unless the production is making substantial changes to the history of the early-to-mid Second Age. He might also be thinking of the arc that appears to be focused on negotiations pertaining to the foundation of Eregion, but in this case I don't think we need to worry about ships sailing up to the West Gate.

Edit: It also looks like the "sea-faring elves" term is not actually present in Howe's direct quotation, so we might chalk this up to the Numenoreans being lost in translation.


(This post was edited by Narvi on May 13 2022, 2:02pm)


Eldy
Tol Eressea


May 13 2022, 2:33pm

Post #12 of 19 (898 views)
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Quotation [In reply to] Can't Post

It's always possible that whoever wrote the preview post completely failed at their job, but given the changes we've already heard about from the showrunners' own interviews, I don't think the fact that seafaring Elves would be a change from the books is in and of itself a reason to assume Empire messed up.

Like, the show is evidently going to make the forging of the Rings contemporaneous with Isildur's life. Forget changes to the early to mid Second Age; everything is up in the air right now.


Narvi
Lorien

May 13 2022, 3:03pm

Post #13 of 19 (887 views)
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Fair enough! [In reply to] Can't Post

A few of the leaks reported by FotF point to major (one might go so far as to say problematic, from a metaphysical perspective) sea-voyages undertaken by the elves of Lindon at Gil-Galad's initiative, so I'm probably being less than charitable to the journalist here.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 13 2022, 3:48pm

Post #14 of 19 (884 views)
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Time compression [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the few specific things that I have seen in the various reactions to Amazon's recent preview of the show that they gave to select personages was a comment made in the video by "Nerd of the Rings" that the showrunners addressed concerns about the time compression and how that would work given how important the themes of death and deathlessness (or mortality, as he put it) are in Tolkien's work.

I am not convinced.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eldy
Tol Eressea


May 13 2022, 5:47pm

Post #15 of 19 (865 views)
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Me neither // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Junesong
Rohan


May 13 2022, 6:01pm

Post #16 of 19 (861 views)
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I am [In reply to] Can't Post

I am no longer worried. I still might not like the show. Or I might like parts of it and not others. But I'm not worried anymore about the showrunners.

Last night I watched the Tolkien Professor's most recent episode of Other Hands and Minds and it did a lot to move the needle from cautiously optimistic to just plain optimistic.

"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."

(This post was edited by Junesong on May 13 2022, 6:01pm)


Eldy
Tol Eressea


May 13 2022, 6:12pm

Post #17 of 19 (858 views)
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I've never been too worried about the showrunners [In reply to] Can't Post

Or at least, not about whether they have proper Tolkien fan bona fides (their lack of any previous screenwriting credits did raise my eyebrows, but doesn't necessarily mean they're incapable of managing ROP). I think the insistence in many fandoms that the creators of adaptations must past such and such purity test kinda misses the point. PJ was not a "dedicated fan" before making the movies—not by the standards of people who seek out forums to talk about Tolkien years after they first read him—but he created three great Middle-earth movies, something I have no problem admitting despite my reservations with some of the changes. And while my views on adaptation have evolved over the years, my experience in purist debates in years past proved to me there's no connection between how much someone likes Tolkien and how positively or negatively they feel about "unfaithful" adaptations. There will always be people who use adaptations as a standard to measure whether others are "real" fans, but in my view they're not worth taking seriously.

ETA: I'll admit I groused about the whole it doesn't feel like Middle-earth without Hobbits comment, but I wouldn't argue that statement indicates that someone isn't a real fan. My concern there is what it possibly indicates (if it was meant sincerely) about the creative decisions they'll make, not whether they are sufficiently passionate about Tolkien. And it's still possible the show will be good on its own merits even if it's not how I'd like to see the Second Age adapted. GDT made far more scathing comments about the material he helped adapt, but I think his version of The Hobbit would potentially have been more interesting than the one we got.


(This post was edited by Eldy on May 13 2022, 6:22pm)


Chen G.
Gondor

May 20 2022, 10:14am

Post #18 of 19 (602 views)
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This [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think the insistence in many fandoms that the creators of adaptations must past such and such purity test kinda misses the point. PJ was not a "dedicated fan" before making the movies—not by the standards of people who seek out forums to talk about Tolkien years after they first read him—but he created three great Middle-earth movies, something I have no problem admitting despite my reservations with some of the changes.


I'm repeating to Fellowship of Fans et al to the degree that I'm basically Cato. But I think its an important point to bring up over and over again, which is: I don't care how good the showrunners are at Tolkien. I care about how they are at television. If the show is Tolkien, but its not good television, it would suck. If the show isn't Tolkien but is good television, it won't.

I don't harp so much on the showrunners' lack of experience, but rather of what little we have of their designs and their storylines: adding Hobbits is already a big no-no, and not because it isn't Tolkien, but because its that wretched thing...its cute. Having a man fall from the sky is a HUGE no-no, and not because its not Tolkien, but because its dumb; and what about some of the quirks of the design? That "Troll", those hunters bearing antlers on their backs, etectra: it seems to me these people got swept-up in the excitement of "making a fantasy show" that they forgot to imbue it with the trappings of a period piece.

That worries me a lot more than whether they know and love their Tolkien or not.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 20 2022, 10:15am)


Archestratie
Rohan


May 20 2022, 11:57am

Post #19 of 19 (593 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I think the insistence in many fandoms that the creators of adaptations must past such and such purity test kinda misses the point. PJ was not a "dedicated fan" before making the movies—not by the standards of people who seek out forums to talk about Tolkien years after they first read him—but he created three great Middle-earth movies, something I have no problem admitting despite my reservations with some of the changes.


I'm repeating to Fellowship of Fans et al to the degree that I'm basically Cato. But I think its an important point to bring up over and over again, which is: I don't care how good the showrunners are at Tolkien. I care about how they are at television. If the show is Tolkien, but its not good television, it would suck. If the show isn't Tolkien but is good television, it won't.

I don't harp so much on the showrunners' lack of experience, but rather of what little we have of their designs and their storylines: adding Hobbits is already a big no-no, and not because it isn't Tolkien, but because its that wretched thing...its cute. Having a man fall from the sky is a HUGE no-no, and not because its not Tolkien, but because its dumb; and what about some of the quirks of the design? That "Troll", those hunters bearing antlers on their backs, etectra: it seems to me these people got swept-up in the excitement of "making a fantasy show" that they forgot to imbue it with the trappings of a period piece.

That worries me a lot more than whether they know and love their Tolkien or not.


I just want a show that has internal consistency and logical cause-and-effect. My fear isn't that they'll butcher Tolkien, but that they'll butcher the scripts. I've harped over and over about how The Wheel of Time series isn't bad because they changed most of the events of the story but because the characters are all written like idiots and the show contradicts itself over and over.

For instance, I don't mind that Galadriel starts the series as a hot-headed battle maiden as long as she arcs into the wise and graceful character we read in The Lord of the Rings. What I would hate to see is her ping-ponging back and forth between those two character types just because it was convenient for the writers in the moment.

My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf

The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.

 
 

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