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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
May 10 2022, 4:37pm
Post #26 of 40
(4270 views)
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I normally refer to essays by one internet fanfic author, who had not-so-very-nice things to say about Jackson's first trilogy: https://web.archive.org/web/20080706053859/http://arthedain.netfirms.com/
One of the final judgments about ''The Return of the King'' (and the trilogy in general), is this one: ''[Jackson] can't pace, has no eye for a scene, and didn't care for the mystery and beauty and history that is the soul of LOTR''. A different take on "egregious change" could be Jackson's fall into the abyss of CGI, increasing with each movie, culminating with the physics-free The Hobbit. However, I would make a somewhat ironic statement that Jackson did strive for visual authenticity of Middle-earth in the physical crafts and choices of the production. They very much cared about "the mystery and beauty and history" with locations, clothing, and armor. Despite the CGI.
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ElanorTX
Tol Eressea
May 11 2022, 2:28am
Post #27 of 40
(4260 views)
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Many meetings, many partings, many blunders
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I accept most of the above criticisms.
One change which really annoys me is the treatment of Éowyn. PJ portrayed her bright, noble, and courageous character as someone so inept she can't make soup. He forgets she was only 17 and already managing a royal household. Then he unnecessarily reveals her identity early in the ride of the Rohirrim, robbing her conflict with the Nâzgul of its drama.
I did like her lament over Theodred and her scenes in the Houses of Healing.
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
May 11 2022, 3:30am
Post #28 of 40
(4263 views)
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...someone so inept she can't make soup. Yes, that was painful. I forget if that was only in the extended addition or not. I'd retroactively cut it from the theatrical release at least.
However, "I am no man!" is classic.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 16 2022, 8:38pm
Post #29 of 40
(4173 views)
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As someone from a slightly (or more than slightly) older generation
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I fully share your puzzlement about the affection for the Rankin/Bass version of The Hobbit, which I dislike intensely, including the music. But that is perhaps a topic for another discussion.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
May 26 2022, 5:28am
Post #30 of 40
(3939 views)
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According to the writer I quoted, the visuals were nice for the most part, but that was due to Alan Lee and John Howe, mostly...not actually PJ and company. Not that I agree, mind you, but it's what he (actually, she) said in the links.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 1 2022, 3:25am
Post #31 of 40
(2633 views)
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Everything else pales in comparison.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Timbo_mbadil
Rivendell
Oct 27 2022, 5:26pm
Post #32 of 40
(1993 views)
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How do you diminish a character virtually non-existent in the book? Her most prominent aspect was to sow a banner for Aragorn, and then marry him...
Otherness represents that which bourgeois ideology cannot recognize or accept but must deal with (…)
Robin Wood 2003, p. 49. "Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan – and beyond". Columbia University Press, New York, Chichester, West Sussex.
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Timbo_mbadil
Rivendell
Oct 27 2022, 5:30pm
Post #33 of 40
(1992 views)
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Otherness represents that which bourgeois ideology cannot recognize or accept but must deal with (…)
Robin Wood 2003, p. 49. "Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan – and beyond". Columbia University Press, New York, Chichester, West Sussex.
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Timbo_mbadil
Rivendell
Oct 27 2022, 6:10pm
Post #34 of 40
(1994 views)
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Before I read the link provided, I at this point already must voice my utmost outrage!
What you summarize at the end is exactly(!) what I think PJ et al did so very well.
I remember giving a paper at a conference 1000yrs back with one of the attendants challenging me that in his view, PJ couldn't tell a story, whereas George Lucas could.
Well, I guess perspectives differ. A lot :-)
Otherness represents that which bourgeois ideology cannot recognize or accept but must deal with (…)
Robin Wood 2003, p. 49. "Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan – and beyond". Columbia University Press, New York, Chichester, West Sussex.
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Timbo_mbadil
Rivendell
Oct 27 2022, 6:11pm
Post #35 of 40
(1990 views)
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Otherness represents that which bourgeois ideology cannot recognize or accept but must deal with (…)
Robin Wood 2003, p. 49. "Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan – and beyond". Columbia University Press, New York, Chichester, West Sussex.
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Timbo_mbadil
Rivendell
Oct 27 2022, 6:31pm
Post #36 of 40
(1990 views)
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where is Isildur evil?
He does succumb to the power of the ring -- necessary for the storytelling, especially in the prologue -- but where is he himself portrayed as being evil?
Otherness represents that which bourgeois ideology cannot recognize or accept but must deal with (…)
Robin Wood 2003, p. 49. "Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan – and beyond". Columbia University Press, New York, Chichester, West Sussex.
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Timbo_mbadil
Rivendell
Oct 27 2022, 7:12pm
Post #37 of 40
(1991 views)
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I can't think of any!
Yes, there was a lot of stuff that bothered me at first (upon my first viewing I almost stormed out in outrage because of good-natured Gandalf, and again a few minutes later for the Merry/Pippin rocket scene).
But the necessity of change became obvious fairly quickly. There are many more examples, but not one singe cringeworthy change.
The most -- not egregious, because it's not one single thing -- change that I have difficulties with is the amount of spectacle (="action"). A little less battle might not have been a disadvantage.
Has it become clear that even after all these years I still love theses films dearly? :-)
Otherness represents that which bourgeois ideology cannot recognize or accept but must deal with (…)
Robin Wood 2003, p. 49. "Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan – and beyond". Columbia University Press, New York, Chichester, West Sussex.
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Timbo_mbadil
Rivendell
Oct 27 2022, 7:15pm
Post #38 of 40
(1989 views)
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The a-likeness of book characters
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There’s nothing worse than a film where you cannot tell characters apart from a glance (cf. the different silhouettes of the dwarves in the Hobbit).
Which is why it's difficult for a westerner (like myself) to watch a film from let's say China. Or Korea. Even Russia. I find it hard (because I don't speak the respective language) to tell names -- i.e. characters -- apart.
Otherness represents that which bourgeois ideology cannot recognize or accept but must deal with (…)
Robin Wood 2003, p. 49. "Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan – and beyond". Columbia University Press, New York, Chichester, West Sussex.
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Timbo_mbadil
Rivendell
Oct 27 2022, 7:17pm
Post #39 of 40
(1989 views)
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Interestingly, no-one mentioned the omission of Tom Bombadil. Or XenArwen. Elves at Helm’s Deep?! Back in the day, that was flame-war-fodder.
In reply to many of the posts above:
Comic relief: I loathe comic relief, nevertheless I do see the necessity for it. And yes, back then it bothered me that it seemed to rest on Gimli’s broad shoulders alone.
But it doesn’t. Yes, Gandalf never slips on a banana peel, but e.g. the coughing on his pipe by the end of TTT for me qualifies as comic relief (the more so as he tries to remain "serious“. There are more examples of this kind).
Sam/Cirith Ungol: Yes, it seems a big change. (IMHO it’s not, it just makes things clearer) Why did PJ send Sam away?
> It reinforces Frodo’s growing weakness in regard to the power of the ring (also the growing influence by Gollum)
> It makes Sam’s love/commitment towards Frodo all the more clearer, when he turns back and then re-returns to follow his master -- against his command. Which in turn changes Sam from the mere follower to an active protagonist, preemting his role in Mordor
Aragorn’s reluctance: That turns the somewhat wooden book-Aragorn to a relatable character. Who would like to watch 9hrs of a never evolving stone idol?
Faramir: I’m so glad they changed him into a “more real“ character. His interaction with Frodo always bugged me in the book! Yes, his sudden change of mind is a bit deus ex machina, but hey, we only have so much time…
The diminishing of Denethor: Although he does play an important part, he is nonetheless a minor character in the story. To give him the room (he -- and others -- might have deserved) would have blown up the films from a meagre 3hrs/film to 5. Not realistic.
In reply to most replies: Especially in hindsight, we tend to forget that 20yrs ago, not too many people were aware of LOTR, let alone were lore masters (it’s like football, nowadays everyone’s an expert ;-)
Many changes had to be made for people not in the know to be able to understand the plot -- or even the basic story! Simplification was necessary, but in other aspects, PJ&team did give us old-school bookies stuff to drool about (i.e. (as ever): the Boromir/Agagorn/Arwen sequence in Rivendell)
Otherness represents that which bourgeois ideology cannot recognize or accept but must deal with (…)
Robin Wood 2003, p. 49. "Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan – and beyond". Columbia University Press, New York, Chichester, West Sussex.
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Timbo_mbadil
Rivendell
Oct 27 2022, 7:36pm
Post #40 of 40
(1989 views)
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much of the link (I refuse to read all of it).
Sorry, whenever buzzwords such as "faithful" spring up, so do the hairs on the back of my neck (as does the knife in my pocket). The author of the article seems to be a writer.
Book-to-film transfers are above all one thing: Films. The story-telling works differently. Such as the minor need to appeal to a lot -- a loooooot!!! -- of people, because films in contrast to writing books cost a loooooot of money to produce. Resulting in simplifications, adaptation, change (we fear change!)...
Argh. I've raved about this topic too much, but you'll get the idea where I'm headed at :-)
Otherness represents that which bourgeois ideology cannot recognize or accept but must deal with (…)
Robin Wood 2003, p. 49. "Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan – and beyond". Columbia University Press, New York, Chichester, West Sussex.
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