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Eldy
Tol Eressea
May 17 2022, 4:25pm
Post #51 of 67
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Agreed RE: the concept's usefulness //
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
May 17 2022, 4:40pm
Post #52 of 67
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I'd never thought much about the renegades line, but your idea is a really intriguing way of accounting for it. I can tell it's a headcanon I'll be thinking about for a while and might end up stealing for / adopting into my "personal legendarium." 
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 17 2022, 5:16pm
Post #53 of 67
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Ah, those embarressing (or not) trolls
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Like CMackintosh, the trolls' accents make me feel uncomfortable. It is not easy to explain exactly why. But it's about British class snobberies.
Tolkien renders the trolls as 'mockney' an exaggerated form of cockney that arose for stage and film use, by actors who would, in that period have sounded very different (much posher) in their off-stage speech. It's the quick reconition of the 'criminal but stupid' stereotype that Tolkien is after, and which arguably works very efficiently to reassure the middle-class child at bedtime that the trolls can be enjoyed, rather than being seriously alarming.
So the effect is probably supposed to be something like the stupid burglars in the Home Alone films. To me, British, the accents used to do the burgalars don't really convey much other than the intended effect. I don't know whether class or race or other social snobberies are apparent or problematic to some American viewers (I couldn't even tell you which American accent it is).
As I say, the Trolls are a quick-on, quick-off comedy turn that will upset the imagined bedtime reader if it backfires. So Tolkien takes an affected imitation ,and turns it up to the max. He does better, in my opinion, when he's employing or sending up accents with which I suspect he was more familiar, or where his writing is more careful (as you say, squire "Thorin's pretentious businessman's bloviating, Bilbo's nervous bourgeois insecurity... the Rivendell Elves' university snideness, the goblins' melodramatic villainy from Victorian drama, Gollum's mewling old-lady whining, Beorn's hearty rustic farmer, the Mirkwood Elves' upstairs-downstairs contrast, and of course Smaug's aristocratic condescension."). The 'Mummerset' accent of the hobbit yokels is also an affected immitaiton from teh stage at times, but Tolkien is clearly interested in, and quite fond of, The Hobbits, so it doesn't bite the same way
But 'mockney' - ouch: the mockery has not always been good bedtime fun. And (as I have commented before, here, when Tolkien was writing, children who were middle-class or were aspirant middle-class would be put to great pains to learn the Recieved Pronunciation accent , sometimes with punishments that seem grotesque today (I ... had my mouth washed out with carbolic soap for speaking that way when I was five years old." Alan Garner in the text I cite in my linked post.)
To be clear, I'm not saying that Tolkien was sitting down to write Hobbit Ch 3 and did the accents as a concious bit of class warfare or snobbery. Instead I think it's more likely that he would think the trolls' accent was innocent fun. It's a limitation of view point that someone from Tolkien's time and life experience would likely have. Things are different now, except where they are not. And that is good, or terrible, according to discussions that can be seen all over the Internet with various degrees of civility coherence or even sanity, but which can't be had here.
So I think I might have to say that the discomfort for me is real, even if someone else really doesn't get it. My point is not to suggest that everyone should be uncomfortable or offended by the trolls, or that people are at fault for not seeing it the way it hits me; or that the trolls should be revised to modern tastes or something. But I wince a bit. For me, this bit has dated badly. You are not required to agree. 
I suppose we bump into yet again in this thread, the problem that we all read or react to Tolkien differently. Nobody is the Reference Tolkien Fan, whose reactions are definitive. That is just as well because I imagine the Reference Tolkien Fan would have to be kept in a locked box in a basement in Paris under controlled atmosphere, like they used to do with physical objects that were the reference metre or the reference kilogram. (It would of course save on curation expenses if the Reference Tolkien Fan could also be the True Scotsman...)
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(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 17 2022, 5:17pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 17 2022, 6:08pm
Post #54 of 67
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If the edit window were still open...
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If the edit window were still open, I'd work further on this bit of the above post
So I think I might have to say that the discomfort for me is real, even if someone else really doesn't get it. My point is not to suggest that everyone should be uncomfortable or offended by the trolls, or that people are at fault for not seeing it the way it hits me; or that the trolls should be revised to modern tastes or something. But I wince a bit. For me, this bit has dated badly. You are not required to agree.
My concern now is that I overdid it and it sounds a bit aggressively defensive (especially the last sentence). Sorry about that.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
May 17 2022, 6:10pm
Post #55 of 67
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I'm the last person to comment on feeling excessively anxious...
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...about forum stuff (or anything, really), but I've found your posts in this thread to be consistently high-quality, thoughtful, and respectful of other participants. So, for what it's worth, I don't think you have anything to apologize for.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 17 2022, 7:13pm
Post #57 of 67
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The Hobbit versus The Lord of the Rings
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I'm going to quote something that I wrote in my 2011 Tolkien Studies piece "Law and Arda" because I think it is relevant here.
In their Introduction to Tolkien On Fairy-stories (their expanded edition of Tolkien’s famous essay) Verlyn Flieger and Douglas A. Anderson describe how Tolkien applied the lessons that he learned in writing the essay to improve his craft, particularly as seen in the advances from The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings. They state, “All of these improvements can be subsumed under the heading of the most potent phrase in Tolkien’s essay, “the inner consistency of reality.” The Lord of the Rings has it; The Hobbit has it intermittently, but not consistently” (OFS 18).
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Felagund
Rohan
May 17 2022, 9:25pm
Post #58 of 67
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You're all good mate, in my view, but ta for checking in :)
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 18 2022, 12:40pm
Post #59 of 67
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“the inner consistency of reality”
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Thanks for this, Voronwë_the_Faithful! A lot of ideas popped into my head upon reading it. The potential problem with that is that none of them really address the point you wished to make. Please pull me back to any important point you made that I have mssed. But I was thinking:
I suppose whether the trolls fit into the “the inner consistency of reality.” or not is similar to whether they cause a failure of suspension of disbelief or not.
As well as I can remember, me as the earliest reader (now my inner 9-year-old, or a slightly different age) didn't mind about this stuff. If Tolkien said trolls spoke like that than I suppose they did and never mind why. On with the story to see how Bilbo escapes!
It's a few Russian dolls up the stack where I start identifying parallels with the real world, and drawing conclusions. Also thinking about the story 'from the outside' as it were - about the author and his intentions and style etc.
It's probably also about that time that I would have begun to notice and perhaps have a suspension of disbelief crisis about inconsistencies.
Of course any story has to have some consistency of reality, or it starts to be confusing or to rely upon preposterous deus ex machina inventions. But I gather that for many, “the inner consistency of reality” in Tolkien is far more important than that.
I've formed the strong impresson that there are many Tolkien fans for whom “the inner consistency of reality” is a great pleasure and an important factor about the works. It must be unfortunate for them that Tolkien was sometimes inconsitent or contradictory - though I'd say he did surprisingly well given many decades of writing, and given that a lot of his material is postumously-published unfinished works.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 18 2022, 1:29pm
Post #60 of 67
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A lot of ideas popped into my head upon reading it. The potential problem with that is that none of them really address the point you wished to make.
That's not a potential problem. It is a potential opportunity!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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CMackintosh
Rivendell
May 19 2022, 10:57am
Post #61 of 67
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Druedain and Dunedain - obverse and reverse
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[ snip ]
The portrayal of the Druedain is also an example of something in Tolkien that has not dated well, from many readers' point of view (that is, there's a bit of 'Hollywood natives' about them for me and I think many other people). So yeta antoher example of somethng that pleases/jars is noticable or unremmarkable, according to one's own opinion, outlook, experiences, taste and personal preferences. Hmmm - maybe we should have 'MOOETAPP" not as sort of champagne dispenser, but as an abbreviation to indicate something that has no objectively agreeable answer beceause it is about each reader's Mindset, Opinion, Outlook, Experiences, Taste and Personal Preferences
So i cut him some slack on that. Druedain are the flip side of the Dunedain coin. (I should probably add a disclaimer that if there is any value in my insights, a good part of it derives from my own experience as a missionary's kid in Papua New Guinea, and the examination of my own thoughts and feelings about being unceremoniously dumped into Western Civilization when my parents retired, Dad becoming a translator of the Tok Pisin Baibel for the Australian Bible Society. And my own search for the "tok ples" or home language of my own Britain-derived culture and European stories about themselves. FWVVLIW.)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 26 2022, 9:11am
Post #62 of 67
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"my own experience as a missionary's kid in Papua New Guinea"
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If you felt like writing about the perspectives that gave you, CMackintosh, I'd be very interested!
The experience of moving between very different cultures is not one I've had, and so it follows that I would not be able to notice applicabilities which would require it.
You wouldn't need to write objective Tolkien Biography if you were making it adequately clear this was about applicabilities.
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
May 27 2022, 4:27pm
Post #63 of 67
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Funnily enough Moorcock has written a lot of shallow fantasy about mighty heroes with swords having action-adventures in a world of flashy escapism where consistent worldbuilding is given little thought and occasionally rejected outright. Moorcock's preference for the power fantasy of nigh-unstoppable swordsmen probably tells a lot about why hobbits don't appeal to him. Erekosë for one would have been able to kill every Orc on the planet no matter how little sense that would have made logistically and take out the Nazgűl while he was at it.
Anyway, let's take a closer look at LotR and how consoling it really is:
Book 1, Chapter 1: Introducing the main characters and the setting. Subtly reminiscent of the final chapter of a deal with the Devil story, but in the end goes softly to a different ominous direction instead.
Book 1, Chapter 2: Very important and ominous exposition in the darkest chapter of the early book.
Book 1, Chapters 3 - 12: Slow horror. This is structured a lot like a Stephen King novel, only instead of small town life in Maine there is an adventure plot. The mystery of the Black Riders is developed slowly and their horror becomes worse every time we see them and learn more about them.
Book 2, Chapter 1: Epilogue to Stephen King mode and character introductions.
Book 2, Chapter 2: More character introductions and more highly ominous exposition that sets the story on a new course.
Book 2, Chapter 3+: Gloom and dread dominate.
...But you've all read the book yourselves and know how it goes and ends. It is astonishing that Moorcock wrote an entire essay bashing a book he clearly didn't read or understand and even more astonishing that so many people take the essay as a work of serious criticism
A thing of note about Epic Pooh is that Moorcock first published it not long after The Silmarillion had come out and become a success. The Silmarillion contains the story of Túrin, who shares great many similarities with Moorcock's single most popular and enduring character Elric of Melniboné. When challenged about the similarity, Moorcock, a former Oxford student who had known Tolkien, claimed that he had merely been taking inspiration from Kullervo from The Kalevala, the same as Tolkien. (He could get away with that, because most people haven't read The Kalevala.) Epic Pooh can be seen as Moorcock further cementing his position by denouncing any possibility of him being influenced by someone like Tolkien.
There could be a thread about comparing Kullervo/Túrin/Elric, I think. Moorcock has gotten away with his claims entirely too long.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 28 2022, 3:12pm
Post #64 of 67
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Welcome to the Reading Room, Silvered-glass!
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Thank you for joining us, and for your thoughts.
A thing of note about Epic Pooh is that Moorcock first published it not long after The Silmarillion had come out and become a success. The Silmarillion contains the story of Túrin, who shares great many similarities with Moorcock's single most popular and enduring character Elric of Melniboné. When challenged about the similarity, Moorcock, a former Oxford student who had known Tolkien, claimed that he had merely been taking inspiration from Kullervo from The Kalevala, the same as Tolkien. (He could get away with that, because most people haven't read The Kalevala.) Epic Pooh can be seen as Moorcock further cementing his position by denouncing any possibility of him being influenced by someone like Tolkien.
There could be a thread about comparing Kullervo/Túrin/Elric, I think. Moorcock has gotten away with his claims entirely too long.
That's interesting: I knew nothing about a controversy over Moorcock's character Elric being rather similar to Túrin. If you felt like starting a thread on this please do. Everyone is encouraged to do that! Folks who visit the Reading Room are likely to be familiar with Túrin; many but not all will know about the Kalevala (and several will have read it, or know a great deal about it.) I don't know who else sits with you in the very centre of the Kullervo/Túrin/Elric Venn diagram. But it's not normally a problem to discuss texts few of us may have read, provided suitable quotations are provided to buttress or illustrate points being made.
As far as I remember, very little indeed was known in public about the Tale of Túrin until The Silmarillion was published. So for Moorcock to have been familiar with it, he'd have had to discussed it with Tolkien personally, or have had the opportunity to read Tolkien's drafts. I don't know what evidence there is that this could have happened. But only then might Moorock have had any chance of conciously or unconciously creating a storyinfluenced by it. Some care is obviously needed here:
Authors who recklessly jump to the conclusion that they have smoked out a guilty plagiarist may sometimes come to grief. In 1992 David Lodge accused a writer of Mills and Boon romances, Pauline Harris, of stealing central elements from his novel Nice Work in a book called The Iron Master. Mills and Boon sacked her from its team of regular contributors. Harris stated that she had never read Nice Work and successfully sued for libel. Lodge eventually pronounced his rival "completely innocent of plagiarism". What made Lodge's accusation such a salutary case was the fact that both novels drew for their inspiration on Mrs Gaskell's North and South. Kinship did exist, but merely in the form of a common ancestor who died in 1865. Watch out, there's a plagiarist about Article by Boyd Tonkin, Independent Newspaper, 11 March 1997
Welcome again, and I hope you enjoy being part of this community.
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"there is the internet truth that good comments encourage other good comments, and bad comments encourage other bad comments"
David Allen Green QC
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Silvered-glass
Lorien
May 28 2022, 4:58pm
Post #65 of 67
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing Moorcock of plagiarism but rather of refusing to admit to his influences. The situation could be compared to that of LotR vs. Shannara, except that Terry Brooks doesn't try to claim that he was really taking pointers from Norse myth or something. There is no copied prose or anything like that, just little things like evil black cursed sentient runeswords that accidentally-on-purpose kill the hero's friends.
I think I'll need to refresh my memory of the various materials in question before I make a comparison thread to make sure that everything is accurate.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 29 2022, 9:20am
Post #66 of 67
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Great - I'll look forward to an interesting thread in the future!
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~~~~~~
"there is the internet truth that good comments encourage other good comments, and bad comments encourage other bad comments"
David Allen Green QC
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jun 18 2022, 8:34am
Post #67 of 67
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One thing which recently struck me as a little odd was the pubs in the Shire. Now we have in one small corner in Middle/Earth and by mostly Hobbits, ones that are in Bree notwithstanding, thousands of years in the past, which just happen to be almost exactly the same as the ones in England in the mid twentieth century. Now how did that happen? Some sort of strange racial memory which caused these instituations to be re-created after such a long time? In almost exactly the same way. Just seems a bit strange now that I think about it!
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