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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 17 2008, 6:03pm
Post #1 of 10
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King of the Golden Hall 11: Forth, Eorlingas!
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The company dines, while the heralds do their work of assembling the Rohirrim to ride out: Théoden, Éomer, the Hunters, and Gandalf. Éowyn waited on them.
Over their meal, they discuss the treachery of Saruman and Grima:
‘How far back his treachery goes, who can guess?’ said Gandalf. ‘He was not always evil. Once I do not doubt that he was the friend of Rohan; and even when his heart grew colder, he found you useful still. But for long now he has plotted your ruin, wearing the mask of Friendship, until he was ready. In those years Wormtongue’s task was easy, and all that you did was swiftly known in Isengard; for your land was open, and strangers came and went. And ever Wormtongue’s whispering was in your ears, poisoning your thought, chilling your heart, weakening your limbs, while others watched and could do nothing, for your will was in his keeping.
‘But when I escaped and warned you, then the mask was torn, for those who would see. After that Wormtongue played dangerously, always seeking to delay you, to prevent your full strength being gathered. He was crafty: dulling men’s wariness, or working on their fears, as served the occasion. Do you not remember how eagerly he urged that no man should be spared on a wildgoose chase northward, when the immediate peril was westward? He persuaded you to forbid Éomer to pursue the raiding Orcs. If Éomer had not defied Wormtongue’s voice speaking with your mouth, those Orcs would have reached Isengard by now, bearing a great prize. Not indeed that prize which Saruman desires above all else, but at the least two members of my Company, sharers of a secret hope, of which even to you, lord, I cannot yet speak openly. Dare you think of what they might now be suffering, or what Saruman might now have learned to our destruction?’
1. Do you not remember how eagerly he urged that no man should be spared on a wildgoose chase northward, when the immediate peril was westward? What peril to the west would Grima have been warning of other than Saruman? And why would he urge focussing on his real master? You'd think he'd be delighted for Éomer to run off on a wildgoose chase.
2. How do you suppose Grima was recruited in he first place? Given the distance, how did Grima and Saruman communicate?
3. What about this "secret hope" of which Gandalf cannot speak? Didn't he tell all to Théoden right after the healing?
Théoden expresses his gratefulness for Gandalf's assistance, and offers him a gift of his choosing. To no one's surprise, he chooses Shadowfax. To the rest of the company, Théoden offers additional armor, including "helms and coats of mail of cunning work, gifts to my fathers out of Gondor."
4. Why would armor from Gondor that's generations old be superior to Rohirrim gear (presumably designed specifically for cavalry, which isn't a strong suit in Gondor)?
Acknowledging that he is riding into great danger, Théoden names Éomer his heir, and then raises the question of who will be in charge of those who stay behind. He asks for volunteers, but gets only dead silence: presumably because those who are eligible want to go with the King. Théoden asks Hama's advice, and the nominee is Éowyn: "She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her." So she is selected. Éowyn and all who are left behind are to retreat to Dunharrow, a remote refuge designed for just such a situation. Éowyn is clad in mail and given a sword.
5. We didn't hear anyone asking Éowyn if she wants this job; later we'll see that she definitely doesn't. Presumably she's happy to be of service now, though. Is it surprising to put a woman in this position, even a "daughter of kings"?
6. Most monarchies have very specific lines of succession. Why is it necessary to figure this out now?
As the host saddles up, there's a little byplay between Gimli and Legolas, and then Gimli and Éomer briefly revisit their conflict over Galadriel. "In token of pardon," Éomer invites Gimli to ride with him, and a delighted Gimli accepts. The order of riding is set: Theoden and Gandalf at the head, then Aragorn, Legolas, Eomer, and Gimli, followed by the rest of the Rohirrim.
7. Why does Eomer offer to carry Gimli, and why is Gimli so eager to accept?
Then suddenly [Gandalf] threw back his grey cloak, and cast aside his hat, and leaped to horseback. He wore no helm nor mail. His snowy hair flew free in the wind, his white robes shone dazzling in the sun.
‘Behold the White Rider!’ cried Aragorn, and all took up the words.
‘Our King and the White Rider!’ they shouted. ‘Forth Eorlingas!’
The trumpets sounded. The horses reared and neighed. Spear clashed on shield. Then the king raised his hand, and with a rush like the sudden onset of a great wind the last host of Rohan rode thundering into the West.
Far over the plain Éowyn saw the glitter of their spears, as she stood still, alone before the doors of the silent house.
8. Why did Gandalf need the grey cloak and hat till now, and why no longer?
9. Why did Tolkien leave this chapter with the rather subdued image of Eowyn rather than the rousing scene of the host riding forth?
Ride with us in the Reading Room this week to see
the King of the Golden Hall!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Elenedhel
Rivendell
May 17 2008, 7:42pm
Post #2 of 10
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9. Why did Tolkien leave this chapter with the rather subdued image of Eowyn rather than the rousing scene of the host riding forth? Maybe he wanted to give a little insight to what Eowyn was feeling at the moment, alone and sad that she could not ride to war. Instead of ending with a "rousing scene" where everyone is happy and full of hope, he brings us back to the fact that not everyone is happy, and that no one asked Eowyn for her consent to stay behind with the women and children.
"O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas."
"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men,and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he was from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace..."
"Many folk like to know beforehand what is to be set on the table; but those who have laboured to prepare the feast like to keep their secret; for wonder makes the words of praise louder."
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
May 18 2008, 3:18am
Post #3 of 10
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"...and rode down the slope and disappeared from Fredegar's sight into the tunnel."
Do you not remember how eagerly he urged...
What peril to the west would Gríma have been warning of other than Saruman? And why would he urge focusing on his real master? You'd think he'd be delighted for Éomer to run off on a wildgoose chase.
Saruman is already a known threat, since Gandalf's escape last fall. Éomer has told the Hunters that there had been skirmishing with Saruman's forces since that time. In this case, Gríma has been instructed to keep the Rohirrim from harassing Saruman's orcs when they cross northern Rohan. If Éomer had not disobeyed orders and headed north, he wouldn't have been deployed against Saruman in the west, but would rather have been told to sit on his hands, ostensibly in case of attack from that direction.
What about this "secret hope" of which Gandalf cannot speak? Didn't he tell all to Théoden right after the healing?
This always confuses me too: if Gandalf didn't tell the king about the plan to destroy the Ring, what was his "low and secret" message earlier? Or is it that Gandalf told him but "cannot yet speak openly", i.e., aloud at the table?
Why would armor from Gondor that's generations old be superior to Rohirrim gear?
The Númenóreans have the greater craft, and Théoden is gratefully offering his guests the best he has.
Most monarchies have very specific lines of succession. Why is it necessary to figure this out now?
Because of Gríma's machinations: he has the court in a state of disarray.
Why did Gandalf need the grey cloak and hat till now, and why no longer?
Explaining the whole grey-to-white switch before would've gotten in the way of his mission of curing the king. He will at times be cloaked again in grey, later in the story.
Why did Tolkien leave this chapter with the rather subdued image of Éowyn rather than the rousing scene of the host riding forth?
I'll just link to squire's comments, listing some similar images in Tolkien.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us May 12-18 for "The King of the Golden Hall".
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
May 18 2008, 7:50pm
Post #4 of 10
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Warning: I might be more incoherent than usual, due to asthma starving my brain for oxygen--kind of foggy right now.
1. Do you not remember how eagerly he urged that no man should be spared on a wildgoose chase northward, when the immediate peril was westward? What peril to the west would Grima have been warning of other than Saruman? And why would he urge focussing on his real master? You'd think he'd be delighted for Éomer to run off on a wildgoose chase.
It's an old trick to get an opponent to focus on an obvious target that turns out to be a straw dog, while downplaying the importance of the real threat. Aragorn later uses this tactic, himself, riding off for Mordor as though about to attack it with the Ring, hoping that Sauron would see guarding himself from mere hobbit "spies" would be a wild goose chase not worth expending troops better sent to the Morannon.
2. How do you suppose Grima was recruited in he first place? Given the distance, how did Grima and Saruman communicate?
Saruman is even more manipulative than Grima. In fact, Grima might be Saruman's pupil, in terms of the power of Voice. That might be it. Saruman, in the early, "friendly" days, might have visited Edoras, and taken note of Grima as someone he could count on to desire more power. So Grima gets lessons, gains power, becomes the chief advisor, and then Saruman starts to pull the leash tighter.
Heck, Saruman might have even implanted suggestions to develop Grima's infatuation with Eowyn! Notice
that Eowyn as caretaker never said or did anything to remind Theoden how to be strong; she seems to have accepted the feebleness which Grima constantly remarked upon as unquestionable. Considering her innate character, do you think she would have stood for watching her uncle being brainwashed, if she hadn't been brainwashed, herself? Planting and watering Grima's infatuation would give Saruman an especially powerful hook into the courtier's soul, while preventing Eowyn from interfering with his plans. Gandalf immediately recognized Eowyn's spirit and potential--presumably any other wizard could, too.
3. What about this "secret hope" of which Gandalf cannot speak? Didn't he tell all to Théoden right after the healing?
I expect that he told Theoden about Aragorn being the same guy who rode with the Rohirrim before in different guise, and that his arrival in Gondor would set things right for Rohan's allies and bring new hope to a hard-hit world. I wouldn't want to tell anyone so recently compromised as Theoden about the Ring. but Saruman already knows about Aragorn, so there's nothing to lose there, anyway. Theoden's men, however, could not listen in on that whispered conversation, because rumors could spread across the land like wildfire clear to Gondor faster than an army could march. And Denethor would not be pleased.
4. Why would armor from Gondor that's generations old be superior to Rohirrim gear (presumably designed specifically for cavalry, which isn't a strong suit in Gondor)?
Because the older armor would date back to a time before Gondor started to lose skills once learned in Numenor, as taught by elves.
5. We didn't hear anyone asking Éowyn if she wants this job; later we'll see that she definitely doesn't. Presumably she's happy to be of service now, though. Is it surprising to put a woman in this position, even a "daughter of kings"?
It definitely surprises, which it's supposed to do. It also clues the reader into seeing more in Eowyn than a nursemaid. Hama would not have proposed this unless he'd seen something unusual, perhaps Eowyn drilling with weaponry, or fending off a wolf, or something out of the ordinary. We know by his remarks that he's seen something to prove that Eowyn knows how to fight, and has a brave heart--something not seen by her own family, since the request took them by surprise, too. And by that we also know that Eowyn is secretive by nature--she has to be caught in the act by accident by a passing courtier; she doesn't discuss her swordplay with even her dearest kin.
6. Most monarchies have very specific lines of succession. Why is it necessary to figure this out now?
Most do nowadays, but only very, very recently. In the past, the death of a sovereign often signaled the start of wars of succession.
Also consider that the obvious choice of heir had only very recently died.
7. Why does Eomer offer to carry Gimli, and why is Gimli so eager to accept?
I think Eomer found the dwarf's devotion to an elvish lady strange and fascinating. Gimli, in turn, finds Eomer's courteous willingness to admit that he was wrong downright endearing.
8. Why did Gandalf need the grey cloak and hat till now, and why no longer?
Grima would never have let him set foot in the door if he had looked like a threat. But Gandalf appearing beggarly would play into his propaganda--or so he thought.
9. Why did Tolkien leave this chapter with the rather subdued image of Eowyn rather than the rousing scene of the host riding forth?
We're supposed to get a sense of something incomplete, hanging on the brink, rather than the satisfying feeling of everything going just peachy-keen. It increases the tension, and prepares us for the odd turn that things will eventually take.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 19 2008, 4:12pm
Post #5 of 10
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A little riddle, and Hama's big "joke"
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Here’s a riddle. A man and his son are in a traffic accident. The man is killed, but the boy is still alive though severely injured. The boy is rushed to a hospital and prepped for an immediate operation. The surgeon walks into the operating theater, looks at the boy, and says “I cannot operate on this boy. He is my son.”
How is this possible?
Answer below.
1. Do you not remember how eagerly he urged that no man should be spared on a wildgoose chase northward, when the immediate peril was westward? What peril to the west would Grima have been warning of other than Saruman?
Dunlendings. That’s probably a main reason Saruman recruited them as allies. (”A diversion.”) And like with Denethor, who really worries about a rabble of orcs?
And why would he urge focussing on his real master?
Another diversion. Best way to throw off suspicion that you are working for the enemy is to warn about the enemy. Read Pierre Boulle’s novel “Not the Glory” to see an example. And the danger.
You'd think he'd be delighted for Éomer to run off on a wildgoose chase.
Then Eomer wouldn’t be under his control. You can’t afford to have a loose cannon in the Westfold. It might do something unforeseen, like, say, wipe out a company of Uruk-hai on a special mission.
2. How do you suppose Grima was recruited in he first place?
During one of Saruman’s visits. Grima seems one of the more literate types, so he might have been flattered by Saruman offering to share esoteric knowledge. But once you hear Saruman’s voice, it never lets go.
Given the distance, how did Grima and Saruman communicate?
Like it says in Flotsam and Jetsam, Saruman’s servants can hear his voice even over long distances. One wonders if it’s two way, though.
3. What about this "secret hope" of which Gandalf cannot speak?
Elves are coming to Helm’s Deep.
Didn't he tell all to Théoden right after the healing?
Did he? Who says?
To the rest of the company, Théoden offers additional armor, including "helms and coats of mail of cunning work, gifts to my fathers out of Gondor."
Tribute, and weregild for the deaths in Gondor’s service of great grandfather Folcwine’s sons Folcred and Fastred.
4. Why would armor from Gondor that's generations old be superior to Rohirrim gear (presumably designed specifically for cavalry, which isn't a strong suit in Gondor)?
Why would Narsil, Sting, Glamdring, and M&P’s swords be superior to modern weaponry?
Besides, back then it actually took several artisans to make superior quality weapons and armor. For example, a sword would be forged by one man, ground by two others, then sent off to another to be finished, then sent to yet another man to be hilted. Sure, one village blacksmith could make a sword. But it took a civilization with a large base population to provide enough specialists to make a superior sword, like Gondor.
Acknowledging that he is riding into great danger, Théoden names Éomer his heir, and then raises the question of who will be in charge of those who stay behind. He asks for volunteers, but gets only dead silence: presumably because those who are eligible want to go with the King. Théoden asks Hama's advice, and the nominee is Éowyn: "She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her."
Actually there is an extremely insulting little farce going on here, very much at Eowyn’s expense.
“But to some-one I must now entrust my people that I leave behind, to rule in my place. Which of you will stay?”
No man spoke.
“Is there none you would name? In whom do my people trust?”
“In the house of Eorl”, answered Hama.
“But Eomer I cannot spare, nor would he stay”, said the king…
(Now that’s very interesting. Theoden acknowledges that even if Eomer was ordered to stay behind he wouldn’t stay, but would disobey and go off with the army to war. Yet many readers condemn Eowyn for later doing the exact same thing!! Talk about your double standards!! Anyway, back to the male chauvinist pig comedy routine.)
“And he is the last of that House.”
(Theoden seems to have forgotten someone. But that’s understandable. A lowly slave is merely part of the furniture.)
“I said not Eomer,” answered Hama. “And he is not the last.”
(Now Hama has everyone stumped and in suspense, including the king. He’s savoring springing the punch-line of his little joke.)
“There is Eowyn, daughter of Eomund, his sister.”
Oh, yeah. Real funny. NOT. (And if it wasn’t meant to be a joke, then why didn’t Hama say her name right at first instead of drawing it out? I’m sure everyone had a great big laugh. BTW, you might want to give the riddle above another look if you haven't figured it out.)
So she is selected. Éowyn and all who are left behind are to retreat to Dunharrow, a remote refuge designed for just such a situation.
So she is forced to take the dishonorable and distasteful task no self-respecting man would take: Retreat with the women and children.
Éowyn is clad in mail and given a sword.
Reminds me how Quasimodo is crowned and attired as the “Pope of Fools” in Victor Hugo’s “The Hunchback of Notre Dame”. But I think Eowyn is smart enough to get the “joke”. Boy, she must be steaming. “Here’s armor and a sword. Now run away.”
5. We didn't hear anyone asking Éowyn if she wants this job;
Yes, Theoden did ask the men for volunteers. But you don’t ask a slave, you tell it.
…later we'll see that she definitely doesn't.
Little wonder.
Presumably she's happy to be of service now, though.
Oh, sure. ”Run away! Run away!” A great honor.
Is it surprising to put a woman in this position, even a "daughter of kings"?
Not really. What honorable able-bodied warrior would deign to accept such a position? Even Erkenbrand is later left behind with the infirm and wounded only because of his age when everyone else rides off to Gondor.
6. Most monarchies have very specific lines of succession. Why is it necessary to figure this out now?
Read Beowulf. Once a king is dead his arrangements for succession mean nothing.
7. Why does Eomer offer to carry Gimli, and why is Gimli so eager to accept?
They’re both honorable warriors seeking a way to make amends for a disagreement without losing face.
8. Why did Gandalf need the grey cloak and hat till now, and why no longer?
Why did Saruman of Many Colors need his white cloak for a while and then no longer? Theatrics.
9. Why did Tolkien leave this chapter with the rather subdued image of Eowyn rather than the rousing scene of the host riding forth?
Because he knows the humiliation, degradation, and heartbreak that Eowyn has just been subjected to. Just because she’s a woman.
BTW, the answer to the above riddle is that the surgeon is the boy’s mother.
Back in the sixties and seventies you could win a lot of bar bets with this riddle. Often the riddle would be used by ladies in the women's equal rights movement to demonstrate deep-seated male chauvinism. (Yes, it totally stumped me the first time I heard it 40 years ago.) As the American culture has become more accepting of women in traditionally male positions not many people are stumped anymore. But I bet Theoden and all his male friends would still be scratching their heads. Jerks.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Beren IV
Gondor
May 20 2008, 6:04am
Post #6 of 10
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1. Do you not remember how eagerly he urged that no man should be spared on a wildgoose chase northward, when the immediate peril was westward? What peril to the west would Grima have been warning of other than Saruman? And why would he urge focussing on his real master? You'd think he'd be delighted for Éomer to run off on a wildgoose chase.
Except it's not a wild goose chase, because Grima likely also knows about the mission to Sarn Gebir. If Éomer hadn't interrupted that, the result would have been truly disasterous, and could have been very good for Saruman.
2. How do you suppose Grima was recruited in he first place? Given the distance, how did Grima and Saruman communicate?
Well, if Grima was a good guy originally, there is no surprise that he could have been recruited as an advisor. As for communication, it's plainly evident that there is magical communication going on between people over great distances.
3. What about this "secret hope" of which Gandalf cannot speak? Didn't he tell all to Théoden right after the healing?
You need to ask?
Gandalf is willing to tell Théoden that he has a secret weapon that he intends to deploy against the Enemy. Gandalf will not tell Théoden that the weapon in question is the One Ring, let alone that his intended use of the weapon is to destroy it, thereby destroying Sauron.
4. Why would armor from Gondor that's generations old be superior to Rohirrim gear (presumably designed specifically for cavalry, which isn't a strong suit in Gondor)?
Magic - the Men of Gondor haven't lost all of the Númenórean craft.
As for cavalry armor, Gondor does have cavalry; they're just not as dependent upon it as Rohan.
5. We didn't hear anyone asking Éowyn if she wants this job; later we'll see that she definitely doesn't. Presumably she's happy to be of service now, though. Is it surprising to put a woman in this position, even a "daughter of kings"?
Good question.
Originally, I thought so, but upon re-reading the book, I get the feeling that Éowyn-like women are something that happens from time to time in Rohan - rare, perhaps, but not unheard of. So no, I don't think it's shocking to deck out the princess in armor and have her be the military commander of the home guard. I get the impression that it's the Men of Gondor who are more surprised to find Éowyn in battle - although, realistically, they shouldn't be so shocked either.
6. Most monarchies have very specific lines of succession. Why is it necessary to figure this out now?
That's only recently. In earlier societies, the Heir was the person the King said was the Heir, regardless of what might be the usual case. That said, Théoden is doing the standard thing here: His own son is dead, his brother is dead, but his nephew is alive, so he's the heir. If his nephew also dies, which is possible considering that he also is going into battle, then his niece is heir. The only unusual thing is that the niece is, well, a niece and not a nephew, but that's a culture-specific thing. Apparently the Rohirrim regard women as being sometimes more than housewives.
7. Why does Eomer offer to carry Gimli, and why is Gimli so eager to accept?
Gimli can't ride a horse...
8. Why did Gandalf need the grey cloak and hat till now, and why no longer?
He no longer needs to prepare for his unveiling in the Meduseld.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 20 2008, 7:32am
Post #7 of 10
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3. What about this "secret hope" of which Gandalf cannot speak? Didn't he tell all to Théoden right after the healing?
You need to ask?
Gandalf is willing to tell Théoden that he has a secret weapon that he intends to deploy against the Enemy. Gandalf will not tell Théoden that the weapon in question is the One Ring, let alone that his intended use of the weapon is to destroy it, thereby destroying Sauron. Do you really think that this:
Quickly now Gandalf spoke. His voice was low and secret, and none save the king heard what he said. But ever as he spoke the light shone brighter in Théoden’s eye, and at the last he rose from his seat to his full height, and Gandalf beside him, and together they looked out from the high place towards the East.
‘Verily,’ said Gandalf, now in a loud voice, keen and clear, ‘that way lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear. Doom hangs still on a thread. Yet hope there is still, if we can but stand unconquered for a little while.’ ...wasn't Gandalf telling all about Frodo's mission?
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Beren IV
Gondor
May 20 2008, 4:21pm
Post #8 of 10
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if he told Théoden that there were aspects of his plan that he could not tell even to him. Unless, of course, Tolkien was being inconsistent...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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sador
Half-elven
May 21 2008, 4:23pm
Post #9 of 10
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I thought I'll skip this one, but here goes
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1. Do you not remember how eagerly he urged that no man should be spared on a wildgoose chase northward, when the immediate peril was westward? What peril to the west would Grima have been warning of other than Saruman? And why would he urge focussing on his real master? You'd think he'd be delighted for Éomer to run off on a wildgoose chase.
I think you have several misconceptions here: - Eomer probably wasn't in court at the time; his home was in Aldburg, and that's where he received the news about the orc-raid.
- The marshal commanding the Muster of Edoras (which, by the way, is afield at the time of this chapter), was Elfhelm. Elfhelm did make his way west, to the second battle of the Ford of the Isen, but probably too late to save Theodred (I haven't got UT by me, so I might be a bit confused).
- There is absolutely no reason to suppose the 'wildgoose chase northward' was towards Isengard; it could easily have been East of the Mountains, to the Wold, and further North towards Lorien.
- The clear danger from the West was the unrest in Dunland (we've discussed it in 'At the Sign of the Prancing Pony'). Grima wasn't supposed to know, and possibly didn't, that Saruman was working on an alliance between the Uruk-hai and the Dunlendings. He probably did know, or guess, that Saruman was stirring them up. And that was a very serious threat; remember, the only time Meduseld was taken by an enemy, was to the Dunlendings in the Fell Winter.
I've posted already my guess on who Grima was, what was the source for the policies he originally recommended, and how he became vulnerable to Saruman's influence. So it would be very reasonable he would recoil in horror from any serious military expedition against Dunland.
But remembering the account given in 'The Hunt for the Ring', it seems the Nine passed unclad through Eastren Rohan, on their way to the Gladden Fields, and left a rumor of terror behind them. I guess that was the wildgoose chase - I don't think Grima knew yet the Riders were abroad, but seeing the Muster of Meduseld chafing at the saddle, he thought it expedient to send them chasing the wind in that direction, rather than fighting the Dunlendings. If Theodred led this charge, it would gain two important political goals for Wormtongue: the chase would go through the Eastfold, and a conflict might finally arise between Eomer (the marshall in command of that region, and the one who knows it best), and Theodred (as the king's heir, and the second marshall); and Theodred would be away from the Westfold, and in his absence the Dunlendings and Saruman might actually further their plans.
3. What about this "secret hope" of which Gandalf cannot speak? Didn't he tell all to Théoden right after the healing?
I think not. But it's hard to prove by the books.
5. We didn't hear anyone asking Éowyn if she wants this job; later we'll see that she definitely doesn't. Presumably she's happy to be of service now, though. Is it surprising to put a woman in this position, even a "daughter of kings"?
I don't agree with Darkstone here. I think it does show respect for her. Later, after Aragorn fired her up with dreams of glory, she will see it as a cage. But now? I'm not sure.
6. Most monarchies have very specific lines of succession. Why is it necessary to figure this out now?
Are you sure? In many ancient monarchies, the king was elected by the nobles - but as a rule, a son prevailed over anyone else, and if the king appointed a successor, his will was accepted (except for the Holy Roman Empire, which was one of history's travesties).
And I like to point out Hama's prominence. Just because it fits nicely (well, helped me in thinking out) with my description of him and his position, in the thread 'Diplomacy'.
7. Why does Eomer offer to carry Gimli, and why is Gimli so eager to accept?
Here I do concur with Darkstone's answer.
9. Why did Tolkien leave this chapter with the rather subdued image of Eowyn rather than the rousing scene of the host riding forth?
Just to mention - it's not much of a force. The Muster of Edoras is already in the Westfold, commanded by Elfhelm.
"I will help as I may" - Gimli
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jun 2 2008, 2:32pm
Post #10 of 10
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Succession and wild-goose chases
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The idea of a predetermined succession (usually male primogeniture) evolved at a later point in European history than the point to which the Rohirrim correspond. In Saxon England, the kingship lay in the disposition of the witan or Council- which would choose a male member of the royal house, but not necessarily the king's eldest son, or indeed any of his sons. E.g. Alfred the Great, who did not have the senior lineal claim; and Harold II was indeed the rightful king by selection, not William the Bastard. Note also that in the Odyssey there is no guarantee that Telemachus would become King of Ithaca.
On wild-goose chases- here are the relevant entries from Tolkien's Chronology:
Feb 24: Scouts report at Edoras that Orcs are on West bank [of Anduin-these are Ugluk's company, who have followed the Fellowship down from Lorien, combined with Grishnakh's troop which crossed over after the failed ambush at Sarn Gebir]. Éomer against orders calls [h]is éored, and prepares to ride
Feb 25: Battle of Fords of Isen of Rohirrim against Saruman. Theodred marshal of Rohan is slain.
Feb 26. (Breaking of the Fellowship). Scouts report descent of Orcs out of E. Muil to Éomer. But Éomer hesitates to disobey King, who has ordered him to go to Eastfold and gather his men for defence of Edoras.
Feb 27. News reaches Edoras that Orcs are crossing Rohan. Hama (Éomer's friend) sends messages to Eastfold (É's home) warning É. of King's displeasure, but counselling him to ride against the Orcs. Éomer decides to disobey King and sets out with his éored about midnight 27/28, taking the direct N. route. News reaches Edoras at evening of the death of Théodred.
An earlier draft, with dates two days earlier, has:News reaches Edoras of the Orcs crossing Rohan. Háma (Éomer's friend) sends messages to Eastfold warning of the King's displeasure, and of Wormtongue; but counselling him to ride against the orcs for the good of Rohan. Éomer decides to disobey the King, and sets out with his éored about midnight 25/26, and takes the direct N. route. News reaches [added: illeg] Edoras of the fall of Theodred
Note that Hama (expressly Eomer's friend) is already working to counter Wormtongue's plots.
(This post was edited by Solicitr on Jun 2 2008, 2:37pm)
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