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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: TV Discussion: The Rings of Power:
Trystan Gravelle is Pharazon

Chen G.
Gondor

Dec 12 2021, 8:17pm

Post #1 of 16 (2078 views)
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Trystan Gravelle is Pharazon Can't Post

Fellowship of the Fans had confirmed that Trystan Gravelle is playing Pharazon and provided some description of his demeanor in a couple of scenes in the first season of the show.

Coincidentally, this comes after Looper had listed all the potential antagonists for the show, speculating that Pharazon could be played by "Trystan Gravelle, Simon Merrells, or Peter Mullan." Knowing Pharazon goes under the character codename of "Welyn", that rules out Merrells, known to be playing "Tervyn" and, in all likelihood, Mullan, strongly believed to be playing "Khain", the elder Durin; thereby lending further credence to Fellowship's assertion.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 12 2021, 8:30pm)


The Dude
Rivendell

Dec 12 2021, 10:55pm

Post #2 of 16 (2024 views)
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Odd casting [In reply to] Can't Post

Assuming these rumors are true - and I assume they are since that "leak channel" seems to be part of a conscious effort by Amazon to repeat the "fan leaks" of twenty years past - it seems an odd casting choice for Ar-Pharazon. The actor does not look Numenorean at all, but like a quintessentially Welsh detective in a BBC crime series.

I cannot comment on his acting abilities, but physically imposing, a man in stature as the first Kings, he is not. The description in the beginning of the video completely contradicts Tolkien's description of Ar-Pharazon as well, who should be a charismatic, powerful, warrior-like figure and not a scheming politician. Film-Boromir is closer (but not identical) to book-Ar-Pharazon than this description of the series character.

It is of course too soon to say but if Ar-Pharazon is depicted from the beginning as an unlikeable character, with few admiring traits the series runs the risk of blaming the fall of the Numenoreans entirely on him. Ar-Pharazon should in many ways rather be - like Isildur - a figure similar to heroes of Greek tragedy; great and fallen (yes, this alludes to a subsequent tradition) at the same time.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 13 2021, 5:28am

Post #3 of 16 (1987 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure that the description of Pharazon is too far off. He is ambitious and somewhat scheming (wedding his cousin to gain the throne). The biggest breaks from established canon seem to be: 1) making Miriel a Ruling Queen for a significant amount of time with Pharazon as her chief advisor; and 2) bringing Galadriel to Numenor. There's nothing to say that Pharazon isn't also an accomplished warrior or that he won't gain immense popularity (at least among the King's Men) as Ar-Pharazon, Ruling King of Numenor.

As for the casting, I'll withhold judgement until I see Trystan Gravelle in full costume and make up.



#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Chen G.
Gondor

Dec 13 2021, 7:08am

Post #4 of 16 (1978 views)
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I don't think she'll be the ruling queen just yet [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The biggest breaks from established canon seem to be: 1) making Miriel a Ruling Queen for a significant amount of time with Pharazon as her chief advisor.


I don't think Miriel will be the ruling queen just yet. She'll probably be queen in the sense of ruling for the still-alive but infirm Tar Palantir (Geoff Morrell?): dramatically, it doesn't make sense to rid of Tar Palantir until the time of the coup, which sounds like an end-of-season event.


In Reply To
that "leak channel" seems to be part of a conscious effort by Amazon to repeat the "fan leaks" of twenty years past.


That's not what this is.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 13 2021, 7:10am)


The Dude
Rivendell

Dec 13 2021, 3:03pm

Post #5 of 16 (1928 views)
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Disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's description of Ar-Pharazôn in "The Peoples of Middle-earth ":

"He was a man of great beauty and stature, in the likeness of the first kings of men; and indeed in his youth he was not unlike the Edain of old in mind also, though he had courage and strength of will rather than of wisdom, as after appeared, when he was corrupted by the counsels of his father, and the acclaim of the people. In his earlier days he had a close friendship with Amandil son of Numendil, Lord of Andunie, and he loved the people of that House, with whom he himself had kinship (through Inzilbeth his father's mother)."

In Tolkien's description, Ar-Pharazôn strikes me as a charismatic man of action, and not at all as a "very intelligent and [..] consumate politican". The professor of course offers us little to fully flesh out the final king of Numenor, but it would be far more authentic to (initially) depict Ar-Pharazôn as a physically imposing, highly inspiring warrior, in fact full of youth and vigor, someone not just liked by the Numenoreans but by the viewers themselves (this is critical!), who is eclipsed by his hubris, and then, when the first signs of age start to show, slowly deteriorates into what he becomes in the end. I fear the show will immediatly turn Ar-Pharazôn into the Other, the scheming (as in having to scheme because he lacks martial prowess) politican who operates in the shadows and only cares for power. Again, it is too early to say for sure, but the "leak" certainly does not sound too promising.

As for the picture you posted: Gravelle looks like a stereotypical pirate or a Dunlending from Jackson's second film in that shot, certainly not like a Numenorean.

As for Chen's final comment: The most likely scenario is that Amazon is intentionally feeding "leaks" to the "Fellowship of Fans" channel as part of their (currently very diminutive) marketing strategy. Such "leaks" have become a common method in movie/TV/video-games marketing over the last ten years. This does not in any way mean the channel is on Amazon's payroll, but simply that after one or two genuine leaks in the beginning, Amazon's PR team decided to feed the channel piecemeal leaks about the series. If Amazon did not want to see those leaks, they would have forced the removal of the channel long ago (another possibility, of course, is that "Fellowship of Fans" is inventing all leaks out of whole cloth, but I doubt that).


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 13 2021, 3:37pm

Post #6 of 16 (1917 views)
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Tar-Palantir, Miriel and Pharazon [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't think Miriel will be the ruling queen just yet. She'll probably be queen in the sense of ruling for the still-alive but infirm Tar Palantir (Geoff Morrell?): dramatically, it doesn't make sense to rid of Tar Palantir until the time of the coup, which sounds like an end-of-season event.


You might be correct, though I'm not convinced that Tar-Palantir still lives at this point of the show's timeline. I suppose that we could see Míriel acting as her father's regent, but even that seems to goes beyond the history of Númenor as we know it (as far as I'm aware).

If the show stays with the standard version of the history where Míriel marries Pharazôn against her will, I presume that her cousin (uncle?) will convince her that the wedding is necessary to secure her rule over the King's Men majority of Númenor. Of course the show could explore Tolkien's alternate history where Míriel is actually in love with Pharazôn. As distasteful as some might find this, at least it does have a basis in Tolkien's writings.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 13 2021, 3:50pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 13 2021, 5:15pm

Post #7 of 16 (1891 views)
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Gravelle as Pharazon [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tolkien's description of Ar-Pharazôn in "The Peoples of Middle-earth ":

"He was a man of great beauty and stature, in the likeness of the first kings of men; and indeed in his youth he was not unlike the Edain of old in mind also, though he had courage and strength of will rather than of wisdom, as after appeared, when he was corrupted by the counsels of his father, and the acclaim of the people. In his earlier days he had a close friendship with Amandil son of Numendil, Lord of Andunie, and he loved the people of that House, with whom he himself had kinship (through Inzilbeth his father's mother)."

In Tolkien's description, Ar-Pharazôn strikes me as a charismatic man of action, and not at all as a "very intelligent and [..] consumate politican". The professor of course offers us little to fully flesh out the final king of Numenor, but it would be far more authentic to (initially) depict Ar-Pharazôn as a physically imposing, highly inspiring warrior, in fact full of youth and vigor, someone not just liked by the Numenoreans but by the viewers themselves (this is critical!), who is eclipsed by his hubris, and then, when the first signs of age start to show, slowly deteriorates into what he becomes in the end. I fear the show will immediatly turn Ar-Pharazôn into the Other, the scheming (as in having to scheme because he lacks martial prowess) politican who operates in the shadows and only cares for power. Again, it is too early to say for sure, but the "leak" certainly does not sound too promising.

As for the picture you posted: Gravelle looks like a stereotypical pirate or a Dunlending from Jackson's second film in that shot, certainly not like a Numenorean.


Here's an image where Gravelle looks a bit more distinguished (though Tolkien stated, as quoted in The Nature of Middle-earth, that Numenoreans--and later Dunedain--of the Line of Elrond tended to be beardless):



Pharazon might not possess great wisdom, but that doesn't rule out his being canny enough to manipulate his cousin into marrying him to further his own ambitions. We know, in fact, that he does exactly this (whether Miriel is willing or forced). I see something of a parallel with the Master of Lake-town, a leader who was also a capable politician but ultimately greatly lacking in wisdom.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 13 2021, 5:16pm)


Chen G.
Gondor

Dec 13 2021, 6:10pm

Post #8 of 16 (1874 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The most likely scenario is that Amazon is intentionally feeding "leaks" to the "Fellowship of Fans" channel as part of their (currently very diminutive) marketing strategy. Such "leaks" have become a common method in movie/TV/video-games marketing over the last ten years. This does not in any way mean the channel is on Amazon's payroll, but simply that after one or two genuine leaks in the beginning, Amazon's PR team decided to feed the channel piecemeal leaks about the series. If Amazon did not want to see those leaks, they would have forced the removal of the channel long ago (another possibility, of course, is that "Fellowship of Fans" is inventing all leaks out of whole cloth, but I doubt that).


I am an associate of Fellowship of Fans, in a manner of speaking; and I can assure you that's not the case. Fellowship's leaks are legitimate finds of his, not solicited by Amazon and not invented whole-cloth.


In Reply To
You might be correct, though I'm not convinced that Tar-Palantir still lives at this point of the show's timeline. I suppose that we could see Míriel acting as her father's regent, but even that seems to goes beyond the history of Númenor as we know it (as far as I'm aware).


"this point" is believed to circa episode 3 of season one, so its really not that far into the show. We KNOW Tar Palantir is a character in the show, and if I were Amazon I'd milk the "old infirm king" thing for all its worth - rather than having him corpse in the second episode - but to foreshadow's Pharazon's own fears of old age, but also just because it creates an interesting court dynamic.

I think it goes like this:

Tar Palantir is old and leaves the affairs of the realm to Miriel.
Pharazon gains political powe as her right-hand.
Palantir dies.
Pharazon performs a coup d'etat.
Miriel is forcibly wedded to Pharazon.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 13 2021, 6:19pm)


Archestratie
Rohan


Dec 13 2021, 7:14pm

Post #9 of 16 (1853 views)
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Hmmm. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think it goes like this:

Tar Palantir is old and leaves the affairs of the realm to Miriel.
Pharazon gains political powe as her right-hand.
Palantir dies.
Pharazon performs a coup d'etat.
Miriel is forcibly wedded to Pharazon.


That at least sounds entertaining.

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The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.


InTheChair
Rohan

Dec 13 2021, 9:06pm

Post #10 of 16 (1836 views)
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There may be some merit in The Dude:s objections though [In reply to] Can't Post

The traits that the leaks say describe Ar-Pharazon

Quote
Imperious, arrogant, not particularly likeable


The last one there, not particularly likeable seems strangest to me, though I suppose that might be explained by us seeing him from the point of view of the faithful who disagrees with his policies, though he must I imagined be well liked by the Kings Men faction.

Sauron must have some role to play in the Downfall of Numenor, and if Ar-Pharazon, so hopefully he is not already on his own arrogant enough to think he can challenge the West. He is a difficult character for the show to balance, and must be shown to possess some good qualities. I think that's where thing like the speech mentioned may come in.

Quote
At some point in season 1 he will give an amazing speech to the Numenor crowd


On the other hand this is a show that has Galadriel coming to Numenor so who knows. (I wonder if the show will make any distinction between Elves of Middle-Earth an Elves of the West? And how they will handle Galadriel in this respect?)


Chen G.
Gondor

Dec 13 2021, 9:26pm

Post #11 of 16 (1831 views)
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I may be talking out of school here [In reply to] Can't Post

but these descriptions of the character are not to be taken too literally: they're basically on-set testimonials, and those can be disputed.

The main takeaway from the video, from my standpoint, is the casting: that we can now associate Trystan Gravelle with the role of Pharazon. Everything else is observational and therefore could be said to be biased or incomplete by its very nature.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 14 2021, 2:21am

Post #12 of 16 (1811 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
You might be correct, though I'm not convinced that Tar-Palantir still lives at this point of the show's timeline. I suppose that we could see Míriel acting as her father's regent, but even that seems to goes beyond the history of Númenor as we know it (as far as I'm aware).


"this point" is believed to circa episode 3 of season one, so its really not that far into the show. We KNOW Tar Palantir is a character in the show, and if I were Amazon I'd milk the "old infirm king" thing for all its worth - rather than having him corpse in the second episode - but to foreshadow's Pharazon's own fears of old age, but also just because it creates an interesting court dynamic.

I think it goes like this:

Tar Palantir is old and leaves the affairs of the realm to Miriel.
Pharazon gains political powe as her right-hand.
Palantir dies.
Pharazon performs a coup d'etat.
Miriel is forcibly wedded to Pharazon.


This would avoid the complication of portraying Míriel as an official Ruling Queen and it does not directly violate the canon we know. I do suspect that Pharazon will not carry out an outright coup, the wedding is what he uses to cement his power, with the support of the King's Men majority. Or maybe I'm just splitting hairs here.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 14 2021, 2:22am)


Chen G.
Gondor

Dec 14 2021, 7:42am

Post #13 of 16 (1791 views)
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Isn't Palantir said to find solitude in Oromet? [In reply to] Can't Post

That would line-up with the idea of him still being alive, but having Miriel rule for him.

Its basically Gladiator where Commodus gets the girl...


Althoun
Lorien

Dec 14 2021, 8:44pm

Post #14 of 16 (1750 views)
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Palantir in Andunie and Oromet... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That would line-up with the idea of him still being alive, but having Miriel rule for him.

Its basically Gladiator where Commodus gets the girl...


Yes indeed - in the Line of Elros in Unfinished Tales, Tar-Palantir is described as spending a great part of his reign away from the ruling city of Armenelos and by implication the Court of the Kings, to reside with his kinsmen in Andunie: the family of Númendil and his son Amandil and grandson Elendil, and also in the Tower of Tar-Miniastir in Oromet in that same far western region, where he pines hopelessly after a sight of the Elven ships from Tol Eressea as in olden days:


Quote
"This name [Tar-Palantir] Inziladun took, because he was far-sighted both in eye and in mind, and even those who hated him feared his words as those of a true-seer. He also would spend much of his days in Andunie, since Lindorie his mother's mother was of the kin of the Lords, being sister indeed of Earendur, the fifteenth Lord and grandfather of Numendil, who was Lord of Andunie in the days of Tar-Palantir his cousin; and Tar-Palantir would ascend often to the ancient tower of King Minastir, and gaze westward in yearning, hoping to see, maybe, some sail coming from Eressea."


We know from the tale of Aldarion and Erendis, namely in its footnotes, that when he ascended to the throne as Tar-Aldarion his daughter Ancalime often ruled as regent on his behalf. because he was so often away from Armenelos on voyages abroad: "Of the later years of Tar-Aldarion nothing can now be said, save that he seems to have continued his voyages to Middle-earth, and more than once left Ancalime as his regent. His last voyage took place about the end of the first millennium of the Second Age; and in the year 1075 Ancalime became the first Ruling Queen of Numenor." (Unfinished Tales, p.212)

So a 'queen-regency' (given that Tolkien doesn't ever use the term princess) by default but without that King's Heir yet being a Ruling Queen (with the Tar/Ar) is certainly not a break with the lore and moreover since Tar-Palantir was so often removed from the capital spending time with the Lords of Adunie or gazing out of a watchtower or indeed prophesying as a 'true-seer', it would be natural that just as Ancalime ruled as regent on behalf of her absentee father Tar-Aldarion, a similar set of responsibilities would fall to Tar-Palantir's heir and daughter Míriel.

Thus, we would see her presiding over the Council of the Sceptre with her advisors from the regions of Númenor and issuing judgments in the King's Court in the palace of Armenelos.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Dec 14 2021, 8:46pm)


InTheChair
Rohan

Dec 15 2021, 6:54pm

Post #15 of 16 (1659 views)
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Sound like a plausible approach to me [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
certainly not a break with the lore and moreover since Tar-Palantir was so often removed from the capital spending time with the Lords of Adunie or gazing out of a watchtower or indeed prophesying as a 'true-seer', it would be natural that just as Ancalime ruled as regent on behalf of her absentee father Tar-Aldarion a similar set of responsibilities would fall to Tar-Palantir's heir and daughter Míriel.


It would not be unlikely we will see just something like that.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on Dec 15 2021, 6:55pm)


Felagund
Rohan


Dec 17 2021, 1:42pm

Post #16 of 16 (1589 views)
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Númenóreans and infirmity [In reply to] Can't Post

Will be interesting to see how the show portrays Tar-Palantir's 'condition'. He died prematurely for a Númenórean of the House of Elros (aged 220 at death) but his death is described as the result of having grown "weary of grief" ('Akallabêth'), rather than natural decay. Given the ageing process ascribed to the Númenóreans, whereby their period of 'vigour' could take them into their second century (or longer for the descendants of Elros), it would feel a bit odd to me if we witnessed an infirm Tar-Palantir. Distracted, distant, fatalistic, morose - yes, I'd totally get those traits and symptoms though. Tar-Palantir's sad demise could be a useful contrast to Ar-Pharazôn's own physical decline, as he clings on even as mortality begins to bite.

All this to say, depicting Númenóreans as something 'other' and 'more' than standard issue humans will be an interesting challenge for this project's design team - not mention its make-up artists!

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