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Dunadan of North Arnor
Rivendell
Dec 7 2021, 11:11am
Post #2 of 17
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If anyone does view this excellent Y-tube video...
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and still doesn’t think that Herumor of the 2nd Age was to become the Lord of the Nazgul, the Black Captain of Tal-Elmar, and the Witch-king of Angmar, and survived to become Herumor, Dark Lord of the New Shadow of the 4th Age...
should seriously second guess their Tolkien fandom. Ha.
(Definitely do yourself a X-mas gift this year and get the book ‘Meditations on Middle-earth’ and read Harry Turtledove’s chapter. Amazon might help, though they’re not helping much with the upcoming series, ha ha)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 7 2021, 3:05pm
Post #3 of 17
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With the loss of the Rings of Power I assume all of the Nazgul
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would have died as the power sustaining them was gone.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 7 2021, 3:46pm
Post #4 of 17
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If anyone does view this excellent Y-tube video...
and still doesn’t think that Herumor of the 2nd Age was to become the Lord of the Nazgul, the Black Captain of Tal-Elmar, and the Witch-king of Angmar, and survived to become Herumor, Dark Lord of the New Shadow of the 4th Age...
should seriously second guess their Tolkien fandom. Ha.
I would argue that Herumor was born too late into the Second Age to be one of the Nazgûl (who first appeared in Wraith-form around S.A. 2251).
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 7 2021, 9:43pm
Post #5 of 17
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It would be a shame if every name of a Black Numenorean, or Haradrim or Easterling we get, which are few enough, should be thought of as becoming a Nazgul. Gives them a little more character if some of them reached fame or infamy without artificial boosting.
Names commonly thrown around, somewhat carelessly, in Nazgul speculations include
Herumor and Fuinur
Gothmog (That can't be his own name surely?)
Tal-Elmar
Of those I would only really consider Gothmog, and then only as a name that the Gondorians used for him, but he may have been a no more than a human as well.
For certain we know only the name Khamûl. (Unless you wish to use Angmar as a name)
Not sure if we should know names for the Nazgul really. Names and languages is always presented as the special love of Elves, while of enemies such as the Mouth of Sauron, I think it is said the even he himself had forgotten his name. Perhaps he only referred to himself as the herald of Sauron as a mark of high rank? (Though he wouldn't have said Sauron, that must be a translation.)
For the rest we only know that at least three of the Nazgul were originally Numenoreans (Wonder if that will have some effect on the TV show?), and that one of them was from the east.
Don't remember if anything is said about the other five.
When it comes to the Witch-king I almost feel it a bit of shame that they didn't keep the original Wizard-king, where he had been one of Gandalfs order, though perhaps with Saruman another one would have just been too much.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Dec 7 2021, 9:45pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 8 2021, 5:00am
Post #6 of 17
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it would have made for a very interesting epic. A blue wizard, thought lost, hidden for two ages in the east, presenting as a common wandering man, bides his time until Sauron is vanquished, only to rise up from the ashes and gather his strength...and it is discovered that he himself bred dragons saved from a solitary dragon egg that he had found in his wanderings, hid them from Sauron (out of fear that he'd use them, instead), and, when he had gathered enough strength to strike out against the Free Peoples, used them to a terrible end...
Perhaps even some heroes were to be found amongst the Haradrim, and Easterlings, who had accepted the pardon of Elessar, and were, in fact, good men forced to fight an evil war...even some Avari could enter the picture, too. Perhaps they didn't all perish, and some still dwelt in the east?
Could be quite interesting!
My writing and novels:
My Hobbit Fanfiction
My historical novel print and kindle version
My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders
You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Dec 8 2021, 5:02am)
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Dunadan of North Arnor
Rivendell
Dec 8 2021, 9:57am
Post #7 of 17
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To quote Harry Turtledove, renowned author...
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“I came to the conclusion that the chief evil power of the Fourth Age would be the Lord of the Nazgul... Consider: the Fourth Age is to be the Age of Man...And when the Nazgul’s spirit left him, it ‘faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind... and was never heard again IN THAT AGE OF THE WORLD’. Not in the Third Age certainly, but what of the Fourth?”
“I may also note that, having thus been disembodied, the Lord of the Nazgul was not caught, as were the other eight of his kind, in the incinerating eruption of Mount Doom after the Ring went into the fire. And in a footnote to Letter 246... Tolkien writes ‘The Witch-king had been reduced to IMPOTENCE.’ Tolkien does not say the Ringwraith was slain, so I have, at least, a case.”
So there you have it. At least read the full chapter in ‘Meditations’ before throwing back conclusions. But speaking of Ages, we live in an age where every young whip thinks they’re right and every old fool is wrong. So I stand to be corrected... alongside author Harry Turtledove of course.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 8 2021, 3:55pm
Post #8 of 17
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I would expect a rapid aging and at best spectral / ghost like existent if at all
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.......a puff of mist or....as the chapter title hints at....a shadow.
Look at any cult / religion.....all it takes is a charismatic leader making claims and a few tricks for the multitudes.
There were many in the east who belonged to the Sauron cult. Not all were killed in war. Once the power - in this case - evil was tasted, it does not take much to corrupt men. They crave it. Modern examples - Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Xi, Kim, Castro etc.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 8 2021, 3:59pm
Post #9 of 17
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Maybe a terrible battle between the two Blue Wizards - one to stayed true and the other
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who somehow got corrupted from his mission.
Interesting fan fiction.
Gandalf left ME, Saruman was a puff of spiteful smoke, Radagast...unknown.....Blue Wizards unknown. So three could have been in ME.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 8 2021, 4:00pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 8 2021, 4:07pm
Post #10 of 17
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Consider this line by Gandalf:
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""You can not enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!"
Nothingness with the loss of the ring. Maybe into the outer void with Melkor.
Melkor to Sauron - fool, you made the same mistake I did!
Voldemort moans...........Melkor, shut up, you too fell into the same trap.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 8 2021, 4:12pm)
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Dunadan of North Arnor
Rivendell
Dec 9 2021, 12:46pm
Post #12 of 17
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I’ll respond in kind, as such a conversation is long awaited here...
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Yes, I think, along with Harry Turtledove, that the Witch-king was to be the New Shadow. Turtledove strongly states his case. Read it, please! It goes with Tolkien’s going from Morgoth, to Sauron, to the Witch-king (??) over the Ages, Lieutenants becoming the new Dark Lords. And again, Herumor translates to ‘Dark Lord’.
But that’s my head-canon, I wouldn’t impose it on anyone, no matter how in error I thought they may be.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 9 2021, 2:53pm
Post #14 of 17
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So Turtledove's argument is that:
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"And when the Nazgul’s spirit left him, it ‘faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind... and was never heard again IN THAT AGE OF THE WORLD’. Not in the Third Age certainly, but what of the Fourth?”
Why would he think that a destroyed - "faded to a shrill wailing passing in the wind" - could somehow reanimate and retain power? That makes no sense to me. The only reason the Nazgul had any power was the linkage to Sauron and the Ring. They were destroyed.
The New Shadow is not The Old Shadow. It seems to have grown in the hearts of men. Evil still exists from the point of creation. If the term Herumor is just a title it could apply to multiple people, things.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 9 2021, 2:54pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 9 2021, 3:06pm
Post #15 of 17
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Here is some gaming fiction along the same lines
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http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/...f-mordor-review.html
"Shadow of Mordor uses a protagonist who is the opposite of your typical Tolkien one: a man who attempts to use dark magic and terror against the enemy in order to highlight the Lord of the Rings' themes on why this is a bad idea.
Talion is an individual who desires revenge for his slain wife and child while the Bright Lord is an elf who has his own reasons for wanting to destroy Sauron. The game is aware Talion is being led down a dark path and watching it unfold is like enjoying a good tragedy."
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Morthoron
Gondor
Dec 19 2021, 4:36am
Post #16 of 17
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Well, technically speaking....
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The Mouth of Sauron never died. Never was mentioned again when he rode back through the Black Gate just prior to the collapse of Barad-dûr. Interestingly enough, he was referred to as a "Black Númenórean", and he already seemed to have an intriguing bit of longevity at the time of the War of the Ring.
I ran with that idea in a speculative novel I wrote more than a decade ago concerning the Eastern lands after Eldarion's death:
https://www.fanfiction.net/...888325-0-gaNycGzNCD0
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Dec 19 2021, 4:38am)
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2022, 7:57pm
Post #17 of 17
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– "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!"
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There's more than enough evil in the hearts of men and more than enough little bits and pieces of sorcery spread throughout Middle Earth to create several new shadows. IMHO
Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua
(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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